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#46 Despair

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 06:43 AM

I've been playing with the Monk Remix in BGT (I'm currently in Chapter 5 and am Level 7), and I quite like it; it's definitely an improvement over the original implentation. That said, I have the following comments:

1) Monks are really amazingly vulnerable.
I find that almost all of Viconia's healing is concentrated on me, even when I'm only being attacked by one opponent. At the current level, my character has AC4 (+4 from 19 Dex, +1 from Cloak of Protection, +1 from Claw of Kazgaroth), whereas Shar-Teel has -4, and even Edwin has 5 (or even less when using the level one spell Shield) with only the Robe of the Evil Archmagi. My monk also has 60 hit points even with 19 Con, as the cap is at +2 per level as monks aren't warriors. Contrast this with D&D 3.5E, where monks gain wisdom bonuses to AC, my character would likely have up to 4 better AC, and would also gain full hit point bonuses. Also comparing this to a Kensai, who gains a higher hit die and full Con bonus, as well as -2 from their base AC, the monk really does get quite screwed in this respect.

Also, while I am fairly efficient at dealing out damage, I still have 5 higher Thac0 and 1 less attack per round than Shar-Teel. I have the same Thac0 and 1 1/2 fewer attacks less than Kagain, who has 16 Str compared to my 18/97. If I use Flurry of Blows, I still have 1/2 fewer attacks, but also have 3 worse Thac0. I am not overly concerned with the number of attacks as it will balance out later, plus I have Stunning Fist, but as this doesn't lead to certain stunning, combined with the poor AC my combat capabilities are really limited.

I'm not sure how possible it is alter the HP adjustment to have a different cap (even capping it at +3 rather than +2 might help things in the long run), although I believe that having an open-ended cap might be possible given that it's a Fighter Kit. Also, giving a base -2 to AC would bring it more in line with both the Kensai and with D&D 3.5E, as it simulates the monk basically having 14 Wisdom (although personally, I normally start any monks with 16 Wisdom, and thus would have -3).

2) Clerical Scrolls
Why can a monk use Clerical scrolls? The monk has nothing to do with the Western monks basically being cloistered priests, and a monk makes no use of Divine magic.

3) Flurry of Blows
When I use the Flurry of Blows ability, I gain NMMONK04.SPL, which has no icon and no name (which makes it default to the icon of an empty quickslot, and is called "Quick Weapon"). Using it gives a target creature SR 23. I'm guessing that it's supposed to give NMMONK03.SPL (Flurry of Blows) again. If this is a bug caused by my install, I'd be happy to post my WeiDU.log file.

4) Shou Disciple
Building on what SixOfSpades said about giving monk extra abilities via scripting and joining a monastery, a possible option I'd like to see would be the ability to gain Shou Disciple-esque abilities. If you're unfamiliar with it, the Shou Disciple is a 5 level Prestige Class in the Forgotten Realms splatbook Unapproachable East that basically gives more fighter like abilities (eg. higher BAB, unarmed damage, martial weapon flurry) at the expense of monk abilities (eg. abilities like no disease/poison immunity, no speed increase) for those 5 levels.

A way I can envisage this happening would be to remove/slow down the rate of gaining a few movement rate increases, and poison/disease/charm immunity, but gain increased attack bonus increase, and either increased unarmed damage or grant proficiency points in some weapons (eg. Katana) and duel wielding.

While at first this may sound quite overpowered, if you remember that protection from effects like charm in BG mainly seem to come from helmets, the monk can be quite vulnerable to such spells if you slow down/remove gaining such bonuses.

5) HLAs
I actually strongly recommend the Refinements HLA table instead of the Oversight ones, as in my opinion they are more useful and less cheesy than the Balthazar ones.

If you ever intend to make HLAs of your own, I would quite like to see a permanent Vorpal Strike ability (based on the Epic Feat of the same name).

Edited by Despair, 03 December 2006 - 07:09 AM.


#47 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 03:11 PM

1) Grim Squeaker has apparently developed a way to emulate the wisdom bonus, so if it works without issue that'll be in future versions of the mod.

2) Purely because they can in the unmodded game, and I thought it fit in well with the pnp class' Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion) class skills.

3) I did test this a bit before release, and it was replaced by the corrected ability, so I'm not sure what's going on here. Can anyone else confirm this behaviour?

4) Alternate abilities was an idea I had while the monk remix was still in development, and I may get round to it in future versions of the mod. The ones I had in mind were either based on or inspired by the various monk substitution levels that have been featured in recent sourcebooks (such as Champions of Valor).

5) Most of the monk HLAs I have in mind are based on epic feats, so that one is a distinct possibility.

#48 Despair

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 11:50 PM

If the Wisdom bonus can be emulated, that would be great. I was assuming that it wasn't possible (yet), especially because even the stock kit of the Kensai doesn't have it (which if I remember correctly, did in 2nd Ed. PnP).

I think the use of clerical scrolls is in the unmodded game because they didn't really understand what Monks were about, as 3rd Ed. wasn't out yet, so they just made an ability to fit in the gaps based on the Western view of monks as priests. Having though about it a bit more, I would also be tempted to remove both the clerical scroll use and find traps as an ability, and replace it with some more (5/10) skill points per level to put into Hide/Move Silently, given that the monk also doesn't have the Trapfinding or Trap Sense abilities of the rogue.

Regardless, I love the work you have done so far.

#49 Aramyr

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:00 PM

I've just installed the S&F v2, and I 've got a problem. I've installed the monk tweak too.The monk class seemes even worse. I'm a level 1 monk with DEX and WIS 18 , but my AC is 9 instead 2.

#50 Andyr

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 02:04 PM

That's odd... NiGHTMARE did all the coding for that, so hopefully he'll be along in a bit with a suggestion. I will try to look into it here, too.
Since you're here, download G3 mods please...

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#51 yarpen

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 12:40 AM

I have got ideas for two new classes, which can be implented instead of Barbarian and Monk. I think that shouldn't be too hard to do, and I can try.

Knight class instead of Barbarian
Knight is opposition of Barbarian class - he's extremaly good at defence and raising battle skills of his companions. I think improved Knight kit from my PoF could be interesting here.

- +1 to AC per 6 levels
- Immunity to morale break
- At 10th level immunity to charm
- Once per day per 4 levels he can use 'Battle shout', which give to his allies +2 to thaco, damages, additional attack per round and breaks fear spells (but don't give immunity) for next 4 rounds. Works at 5'.
- At 12th level once per day he can use 'Last hope', which give to his allies temporary 10 hit points, +2 to AC and saving throws, immunity to stun, fear, charm and chaos for next 8 rounds.

- He's limited to standard specialisation (2*)
- He cannot use unhonorable weapons (like poisoned weapons etc.)

Ninja class instead of Monk
- AC and movement speed bonuses like a monk
- Backstab as a thief
- No bonus for unarmed fight
- Can spend 2+ in any available for monk weapon


- Once per day per 2 levels he can use Ghost step: invisibility for 1 round.
- At 5th level once per day per 3 levels he can use Ghost strike: +4 to thaco and damages for 1 round.
- At 8th level once per day he can use poison as a Assasin
- At 12th level he gains Ghost mind: works as const. non-detection.
- At 15th level he gains Ghost sight: can use 'Detect invisibility' once per round.
- At 20th level once per day per 5 levels he can use Ghost walk: works as Dimension doors.

Any opinions, hints and comments? :-)

Edited by yarpen, 30 September 2007 - 04:43 AM.


#52 Strontium Dog

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 03:57 AM

like poisoned weapons etc.)

Ninja class instead of Monk
- AC and movement speed bonuses like a monk
- Backstab as a thief
- No bonus for unarmed fight
- Can spend 2+ in any available for monk weapon



Considering that ninjas were supposed to be experts in unarmed combat, it would be absurd if they were given no bonus for unarmed fighting. Technically speaking, as a class, they should be like monks but with a few extra thief skills/proficiencies added plus the backstab multiplier.

#53 yarpen

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 11:36 AM

I don't think that there gonna be a possibility of adding backstab modifier to unarmed attack. That's why I left canonical unarmed ninja's and want to expose them as a katana/wakizashi/ninja-to fighters. :-)

#54 Aramyr

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 01:06 AM

An idea for next versions monks get bonus Ac from wisdom or leave the BG2 ac progression as it is. Not working with the monk tweak or Lost item monk has +1 thac0 +3 Ac component.I play BGT so I don't know if it is the same in Tutu game.

#55 yarpen

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 09:54 AM

Kit idea which comes from polish, official DnD site.

ASTRAL WARRIOR: These people, no one knows why, are "reacting" with teleportation magic. This unusual talent usually shows off after few travels trough astral planes. Character don't have any shock connected with teleportation, and later have got possibility to create his own portals. It's strange, because Astral Warriors don't have any other magical talent - they cannot cast any simple spell.

Advantages:
- Once per day per 2 levels can use 'Dimension door'
- After 8th level once per day per 4 levels can use 'Phisical Mirror'
- After 4th level becomes immune to Teleportation Field
- After 10th level becomes immune to Maze
- After 18th level becomes immune to Imprison

Disadvantages:
- Is limited to 2 skill points per weapon
- Cannot dualclass into wizard or cleric

If you like this idea, I can do it :-)

#56 Guest_Dishon_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 11:11 AM

Assuming that this mod isn't dead, a few thoughts about the Monk Remix:

1) It seems to me that, until a way to incorporate a wisdom bonus to the monks' AC is found, the changes you've made to the level based AC bonus progression actually drives the monk farther away from its 3E incarnation. This is because in 3E many of the monk's supernatural abilities, AC bonus included, are influenced by his/her wisdom (signifying in this case one's attunement to the flow of the universe and such) while in the 2nd edition rules (or whatever BG2 is using as a base) such awareness seems to depend entirely on the monk's level (most likely due to the relative immutability of attributes under 2nd edition rules).
Also, I second Despair in that it makes the Monk extremely vulnerable (even more so than the average mage)

2) In 3E a monk's Spell Resistance (magic resistance in 2nd) stays rather consistently at around 50% (this is an over-simplication / generalization of the rules but a necessary one in this case) while in your remix it starts at 23% and only arrives at 50% in the very final level of the monk's development (lvl 40)

3) While your Flurry of Blows ability is true to the word of the law (so to speak) of the third edition, it makes little sense to me based on my personal experience in martial arts (though I'll admit that those I've studied are nowhere as exotic as what d&d monks are suppose to practice), Basically, in that trying to attack more rapidly does not come in expense of accuracy (if anything, it makes avoiding your blows somewhat harder) as much as defense (as you have to abandon the defensive stances that most martial arts try to maintain at all times). I am unsure as to what effect it would have on game balance (especially with monks no longer being immune to haste spells) but I thought I'd mention it anyway.



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