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General Viccy debate...


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#1 Cybersquirt

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:56 PM

I realize it's early in the game, but.. I just hadta ask :D
Stupid is as stupid does.

#2 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 02:00 AM

Once we've got an original relationship talk finished (as opposed to one that is similar to an early male lovetalk) then I'll post it.
"Leave me be, I don't want to argue.
I just get confused and I come all undone.
If I agree, well it's just to appease you,
'Cause I don't remember what we're fighting for."

#3 Zandilar

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 10:45 PM

Heya,

I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I'm going with this. :D

But here's a little bit I wrote last night while drinking some coffee between doing last minute easter weekend shopping (since everything is closed today, being Good Friday and all)...


A war of light and shadows is waged before our very eyes. From the depths of the Underdark she ran, into the embrace of the surface night. Hunted, hated for the darkness of her skin, with no where else to turn, she is embraced by loss and shadows... And yet, somewhere inside dwells a spark...

She is an enigma, mysterious and sensual.

She is Viconia DeVir.



I know that's probably not too much, and probably doesn't say much of anything. I know some people might disagree, too, with the idea that there might just be a spark of light within her. But the fact that you can eventually turn her alignment away from Evil, and especially what she says after that happens in ToB... that spark has always been within her. She is definitely not a Drizzt Do'Urden, nor is she a Liriel Baenre... But she is certianly not your typical drow, nor is she your typical repentant drow.

She's an enigma. :D

#4 Cybersquirt

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Posted 09 April 2004 - 01:54 AM

hmm.. well.. I can't say that I DISagree that there may be a spark.. after all, she does question the unending, senseless sacrifices - which result in her falling from favor - but that spark is easily extinguished. She is Nowhere Near Drizzt, and I'm vaguely familiar with Liriel - she leaves the ways of the Drow, in disqust, yes?

Viconia questions sacrifice after sacrifice and, yes, she felt something for the male that was her brother. Enigma.. I think it just might fit; as long as we remember the only reason she ran was because she faced being sacrificed herself. She is outcast (hunted and hated) among her people as well: first because she fell, then because she has no house.

Nowhere to turn, indeed. :D
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#5 Zandilar

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Posted 09 April 2004 - 03:40 AM

hmm.. well.. I can't say that I DISagree that there may be a spark.. after all, she does question the unending, senseless sacrifices - which result in her falling from favor - but that spark is easily extinguished.  She is Nowhere Near Drizzt, and I'm vaguely familiar with Liriel - she leaves the ways of the Drow, in disqust, yes?


Liriel was actually a favoured priestess of Lolth for most of her journey with Fydor. She eventually turned away from Lolth and embraced Eilistraee, if I'm remembering rightly. She didn't really run away from drow society in disgust, it kind of just happened... and she decided she liked the surface world... and she had this artifact that would allow her to keep her innate drow abilities on the surface (the idea of drow loosing their innate abilties on the surface has mercifully been done away with in 3rd Ed, so to has the idea of drow magical items disintergrating in the sun)... I think she, like Viconia, was frustrated and annoyed by some of the stupidity that seems to be rampant in Menzoberranzan... but I don't think that was what drove Liriel away.

(I haven't read the third book in the series yet, so I can't comment beyond book 2 in the Windwalker trilogy.)

Viconia questions sacrifice after sacrifice and, yes, she felt something for the male that was her brother.  Enigma.. I think it just might fit; as long as we remember the only reason she ran was because she faced being sacrificed herself.  She is outcast (hunted and hated) among her people as well: first because she fell, then because she has no house.

Nowhere to turn, indeed.  :D


I wonder how Viconia would have turned out had things not quite gone the way they did. If she hadn't been faced with the sacrifice of that child, do you think she would have ended up leaving in disgust anyway?

The thing is, and what really drives my idea that she always carried a spark of light within, when she did come to the surface, all she ever wanted was to be left alone. She never seemed to set out to do any harm to anyone. It was only when she was hurt and abused that she retalliated. In some ways she was much more merciful towards her tormentors than I would have been under similar circumstances - and I concider myself to be Neutral Good in alignment. (As far as her story in BG1 goes, well the Flaming Fist mercenary had no evidence beyond the colour of her skin. I'm inclined to believe that she was a conveniant scapegoat by way of her race.)

Shar clerics tend to be full of plots and plans to inflict loss and bitterness on people, doing things to further the aims of their goddess. Viconia exhibits none of this. In fact, she shows remarkable loyalty and doesn't turn against the PC even in moments of his/her weakness... There are several points in the game where she could do this, and it would have brought much glory to Shar... (Particularly if she had betrayed the PC at the Tree of life... PC looses Viconia, the elves loose Suldanessellar, the Seldarine loose the Tree of Life... what greater loss could she inflict? Especially if she could also do something to deny Irenicus his divinity, and prevent the PC from regaining hisgibberlings3.net/her soul!)

Being a cleric is more than just tossing healing spells around. They must provide their deity with loyal service, and also must do what they can to further the goals of their deities. Viconia doesn't do this. At all. Ever. I cannot recall a single instance of her doing something deliberately to hurt someone, to cause loss, or bitterness. Jaheira helps save the druid grove, and defeat the shadow king, which definitely serves Silvanus. Aerie does the same, which definitely serves Baervan Wildwanderer (gnomish god of travel, nature, and forest gnomes).. Cernd is a druid has a druid quest associated with him. Anomen does knighly quests in Helm's name. But what does Viconia do in service of Shar, hmmm? Nothing.

And on that interesting thought, I should end this post. :D

#6 Cybersquirt

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Posted 09 April 2004 - 04:42 AM

Interesting thought.. yes.

You make valid points. But because it's something I've wondered about prior, I believe Viconia worships Shar for lack of another, more fitting, diety. Viconia is bitter and acutely aware of loss (especially when she reaches the surface), perhaps even desperate, for whatever reason it's her own situation that is her homage to Shar (and, it is why the relationship with her ends in SoA.) ... or, at least, that's the worship bioWare allows her. Along that vein, I tend to look at it this as an oversight.. the way bioWare made it so unavoidable to play anything but a good character lest you be too experience starved to survive the final battle. I agree that Viconia should be more deceitful.. hell, Korgan should try to kill a few party members - instead, Keldorn praises his fighting style?! Talk about an oversight, Pfeh. In fact, I have to look at it as an oversight else we have a(nother) discussion about what diety she should turn to. :D

If she hadn't been faced with the sacrifice of that child, do you think she would have ended up leaving in disgust anyway?

No. ..or, at least, I think that there's more that she misses about her way of life than she 'appreciates' about the surface; And definitely not on her own. I think she would (may?) have switched dieties tho. When one questions the foundation of their faith - as she questioned the never-ending sacrifices that Lloth seems to demand - what's left to do? It should be remembered that she is not adverse to carnage. I suppose it is possible to follow the train of logic that says: when she refused to kill the child, how could she see it as a 'spark' with no one around her to encourage that (did I just say that? erk.) ahem ..or something. :D However! That'd be a tough sell and, imo, would require tweaking the exisiting woman that is the goddess Viconia.

To sum up, I would rather see actions deemed more realistic than see her ..turned neutral before her time. :D

edit #20:

all she ever wanted was to be left alone

And wouldn't you if you were seemingly persecuted from the moment you arrived? Enigma fits. Either because of the holes in her character by the writers that needed her to appeal to the PC or whether she, herself, is conflicted.

edit #21
The ToL.. she could have left the PC (the PC, of course, would go on to save all :D) but would have died because of the geas. I realize she probably wouldn't have left the PC anyway, but still..

Edited by Cybersquirt, 09 April 2004 - 05:06 AM.

Stupid is as stupid does.

#7 Zandilar

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Posted 09 April 2004 - 09:07 PM

Heya,

Interesting thought.. yes.

You make valid points.  But because it's something I've wondered about prior, I believe Viconia worships Shar for lack of another, more fitting, diety.  Viconia is bitter and acutely aware of loss (especially when she reaches the surface), perhaps even desperate, for whatever reason it's her own situation that is her homage to Shar (and, it is why the relationship with her ends in SoA.) ... or, at least, that's the worship bioWare allows her.  Along that vein, I tend to look at it this as an oversight.. the way bioWare made it so unavoidable to play anything but a good character lest you be too experience starved to survive the final battle.  I agree that Viconia should be more deceitful.. hell, Korgan should try to kill a few party members - instead, Keldorn praises his fighting style?!  Talk about an oversight, Pfeh.  In fact, I have to look at it as an oversight else we have a(nother) discussion about what diety she should turn to.  :D


Well that's not good enough. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. If Viconia wants power from Shar, she must serve Shar. That is how it works. Shar won't grant her powers for half-hearted worship, in fact that is more likely to make her wrathful. If, after a long period of time, Viconia wasn't advancing Shar's cause (or even just attempting to advance Shar's cause) - Shar would not think twice about abandoning her. After all, she also gains power from Loss.

Unfortunately, since WoTC has a family friendly policy (they had this prior to becoming a subsidary of Hasbro), BG2 doesn't treat evil well. In fact, I can't think of a single Bioware game where Evil has been more than playground bully style even without a licence from WoTC (KotOR for example, which is a licence of LucasArts).

Of course, just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. They are restricted by their policy, so just as we see no bisexual or gay characters in BG2, so too we don't see truely evil NPCs.

No.  ..or, at least, I think that there's more that she misses about her way of life than she 'appreciates' about the surface; And definitely not on her own.  I think she would (may?) have switched dieties tho.


1) I am not so sure about that...
2) She couldn't really change deities in Menzoberranzan. Menzoberranzan is the biggest Lolth city, and changing deities would probably end up with her loosing favor with House DeVir, and probably having to flee anyway. Unless she became a "double agent" for Vhaeraun. (For some reason both Lolth and Vhaeraun sometimes allow priestesses to do that... it makes absolutely NO sense, IMHO, given that Lolth is generally very jealous.) The other thing to remember about drow deities is that they're ALL decadent and wasteful and pretty much all chaotic... which I think is the problem Viconia has with them.

When one questions the foundgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netation of their faith - as she questioned the never-ending sacrifices that Lloth seems to demand - what's left to do?  It should be remembered that she is not adverse to carnage.


This is a contradiction. She likes carnage, and yet she won't perform sacrifices for her goddess? Shar would demand her share of sacrifices, too. Just because she's not Chaotic as well as Evil doesn't change things. Shar can be subtle, but so can Lolth. Lolth can be blatant, but so can Shar... They both have their moments.. If Viconia was really that concerned by how "wasteful" sacrifices just to "appease the goddesses vanity" are - why be a cleric at all? Cleric'ing is all about service to a deity. As I said above, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

"I lapsed when a child... a baby... was to die: it would not have made Lolth stronger or more influential or made her a greater deity. I lost my will that day."

The point isn't that it would have made Lolth a stronger or more influential deity, the point was that it was Lolth's will that the child be sacrificed to her. Why couldn't Viconia do it?


  I suppose it is possible to follow the train of logic that says: when she refused to kill the child, how could she see it as a 'spark' with no one around her to encourage that (did I just say that?  erk.) ahem ..or something.  :D However!  That'd be a tough sell and, imo, would require tweaking the exisiting woman that is the goddess Viconia.


Viconia came to the surface and found herself lost and alone. Persecuted by pretty much everyone she met, or taken advantage of. Aside from her retalliation towards the men in Beregost, she shows no signs of wanting to be vengeful.

I am not trying to argue for Viconia to be netural from the start, I'm just trying to point out that she doesn't seem to act terribly evil... and some of the things she says just doesn't jibe well with the idea that she's so evil that she can't change.

Personally I would have much rather seen Viconia's alignment change handled differently... Make it a much more long term quest for the PC if they want to change her. (ie: have it span both SoA and ToB) And have her alignmetn change ultimately have consequences! (Like loosing Shar's favour, for a start)...

Bioware is too full of good/evil flip flops. Pretty much all their recent games have contained them - and sometimes in multiples *cough*KotOR*cough*...


To sum up, I would rather see actions deemed more realistic than see her ..turned neutral before her time.  :D

edit #20:

all she ever wanted was to be left alone

And wouldn't you if you were seemingly persecuted from the moment you arrived? Enigma fits. Either because of the holes in her character by the writers that needed her to appeal to the PC or whether she, herself, is conflicted.


Unfortunately making her actions more realistic (ie: in line with Alignment and Deity), Viconia would end up being traitorous, probably. Definitely not someone to trust, anyway... Making her truely evil would probably spoil some of her... enigmatic qualities.


edit #21
The ToL.. she could have left the PC (the PC, of course, would go on to save all  :D) but would have died because of the geas.  I realize she probably wouldn't have left the PC anyway, but still..


Hmm I forgot about the geas... Though I'm sure Irenicus could have broken that if he really wanted to, and that would be who I would have gone to if I were Viconia. You know geas are slow killers, right? Takes more than a week before ill effects start to show up. That's plenty of time to go to Irenicus and have the geas broken by him. However, this would have messed up the story, so the closest to Evil Viconia ever comes is that she is an utter bitch at times.

Lastly I want to say that my reply was composed over a period of about 6 hours - so if it doesn't make any sense... Well I have been distracted... A lot.

#8 Cybersquirt

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Posted 10 April 2004 - 07:15 AM

(edit: it made sense, and now I'm suddenly too tired to debate further) So, for now I'll leave you with this, a sketchily-detailed quest (which bioWare dropped) that David Gaider talks about:

"Everyone knows that Viconia was designed, originally, to have more involvement in the Underdark part of the story. This was, indeed, the original plan...but that was back before we knew exactly how the Underdark was going to fit into the overall game. We ended up having so much other stuff for Viconia (like the romance) that it really didn't become necessary.

At any rate, Viconia's presence in the party was supposed to help and hinder when entering the dark elves' city. Once in the city, Viconia would disappear shortly afterwards...and the party would be approached within minutes and arrested as imposters. They would be transferred to a drow prison to await sacrifice to Lolth...where, a day later, Viconia would arrive and free the party. At first, she would claim to have recognized the party arriving and suspected what was going to happen, saying this was her first chance to rescue the player. The player could choose to see through this rather obvious lie, where Viconia would spit and say fine...she had hoped to re-ingratiate herself with Lolth and the drow by surrendering the Child of Bhaal to one of the lesser and more ambitious houses (the one that we later made part of the quest with Drizzt's foe, whatshisname). Viconia, however, has just heard of the long-ago fall of her own house and realized that she had no protection, no name...the Matron Mother would sacrifice her to Lolth, as well.

Viconia knows, however, that the Matron Mother of the minor House hasn't told anyone of the party's presence...she's kept it a secret. If she releases the party, she will direct them to kill the Matron Mother to preserve their secret and continue their mission. The party can tell her off afterwards, at which she will spit an epithet at them and find her way on her own...she always has. If they express any kind of understanding, she will be suspicious, but grateful (in her own way...Viconia has a hard time saying 'thank you').
If there was a romance underway, the whole thing might have worked out a bit differently. After releasing the party and confronting the Matron Mother, the Matron would express shock at Viconia's actions. She would say that she planned to restore Viconia's standing amongst the Drow and invite her into her own house...why throw that away? Viconia would say nothing and begin the attack.

Afterwards, however, the player could question Viconia about this. Viconia would be reluctant to speak, but would confess that the thought...the very possibility...of going back to the life she knew took her over, made her do something rash. She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs here. It is a realization that does not sit well with her. The player can turn her out here, as well.
(There was also some talk that Viconia would betray the party but not change her mind unless the romance was active...with the small number of NPC's, though, that didn't seem like a good idea)."


..and I'm off to meditate. :D

Edited by Cybersquirt, 10 April 2004 - 08:53 AM.

Stupid is as stupid does.

#9 Jessayla

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Posted 10 April 2004 - 12:26 PM

This is one particular quest that I especially wish hadn't been cut out. To me, it fits precisely with Viconia's character as portrayed throughout the game, and does indeed portray at least a little view of her drow nature and the more 'evil' side of Viconia. In my opinion, Viconia's relationship with the PC (whether male or female) could only benefit from more interactions where Viconia shows more of her character and unique (at least among the Bioware 17) upbringing. She IS drow, she IS neutral evil, and taking away from this is, in my opinion, detrimental to her character. This isn't to say that I'm at all against her alignment change in ToB, though I do think that should have been handled differently. ToB's just too damned short. :D Don't know. I guess I just see Viconia's neutral evil alignment as being very fitting of the characterizations she displays in SoA. NE people are often hedonistic, self-centered. To me, Viccie just epitomizes these qualities.

Ah well, don't mind me too much. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would hate to see Viconia's temperment changed in the SoA relationship. I am most certainly glad to see this mod being worked on; I've long thought Viconia should have been a romance option for characters of either gender. Good luck with the mod!

#10 Zandilar

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Posted 10 April 2004 - 04:58 PM

Heya,

(edit: it made sense, and now I'm suddenly too tired to debate further) So, for now I'll leave you with this, a sketchily-detailed quest (which bioWare dropped) that David Gaider talks about:


"Everyone knows that Viconia was designed, originally, to have more involvement in the Underdark part of the story. This was, indeed, the original plan...but that was back before we knew exactly how the Underdark was going to fit into the overall game. We ended up having so much other stuff for Viconia (like the romance) that it really didn't become necessary.

At any rate, Viconia's presence in the party was supposed to help and hinder when entering the dark elves' city. Once in the city, Viconia would disappear shortly afterwards...and the party would be approached within minutes and arrested as imposters. They would be transferred to a drow prison to await sacrifice to Lolth...where, a day later, Viconia would arrive and free the party. At first, she would claim to have recognized the party arriving and suspected what was going to happen, saying this was her first chance to rescue the player. The player could choose to see through this rather obvious lie, where Viconia would spit and say fine...she had hoped to re-ingratiate herself with Lolth and the drow by surrendering the Child of Bhaal to one of the lesser and more ambitious houses (the one that we later made part of the quest with Drizzt's foe, whatshisname). Viconia, however, has just heard of the long-ago fall of her own house and realized that she had no protection, no name...the Matron Mother would sacrifice her to Lolth, as well.

Viconia knows, however, that the Matron Mother of the minor House hasn't told anyone of the party's presence...she's kept it a secret. If she releases the party, she will direct them to kill the Matron Mother to preserve their secret and continue their mission. The party can tell her off afterwards, at which she will spit an epithet at them and find her way on her own...she always has. If they express any kind of understanding, she will be suspicious, but grateful (in her own way...Viconia has a hard time saying 'thank you').
If there was a romance underway, the whole thing might have worked out a bit differently. After releasing the party and confronting the Matron Mother, the Matron would express shock at Viconia's actions. She would say that she planned to restore Viconia's standing amongst the Drow and invite her into her own house...why throw that away? Viconia would say nothing and begin the attack.

Afterwards, however, the player could question Viconia about this. Viconia would be reluctant to speak, but would confess that the thought...the very possibility...of going back to the life she knew took her over, made her do something rash. She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs here. It is a realization that does not sit well with her. The player can turn her out here, as well.
(There was also some talk that Viconia would betray the party but not change her mind unless the romance was active...with the small number of NPC's, though, that didn't seem like a good idea)."


..and I'm off to meditate. :D



Hmm... That is a very interesting quest. It has potential. But it is also so full of holes (yes, I know, it's sketchy), as to be unworkable.

If Viconia tried to do that, a number of things would happen. Lolth would laugh and probably demand her sacrifice or even worse try to transform her into a drider... After all, Lolth is not known for being a particularly forgiving deity - she would say "thanks for the Child of Bhaal, and now I shall deal with you traitorous bitch". Shar would go, "Oy! You can't do that! I'm taking my toys and going home!"... Viconia would be left in the middle of Ust Natha with the entire population after the party and herself (good bye saving silver dragon eggs)... without Shar's favour (you know, those things called spells)...

You can't just "put a god on" then "take a god off and put another one on"... Changing deities is not a trivial matter. If she tried it, not only would she have Lolth after her, I'm pretty sure Shar wouldn't like her much either.

This is one thing I really don't like about Bioware Forgotten Realms based games. In many ways they demphasize the importance of deities. Without a patron you can't be ressurected, without a patron a cleric can't cast spells... Betraying a deity has very real consequences, at least for a divine spell caster (that means cleric, druid, paladin and ranger!).

#11 Cybersquirt

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Posted 10 April 2004 - 07:46 PM

But it is also so full of holes (yes, I know, it's sketchy), as to be unworkable.

LOL.. I LIKE that quest. MUST you kill ALL my hope? :D

Well, I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'm not a lore person, I like a good story. So I'm rather in over my head now (and there's really nothing new to add). That said, until I see something concrete from you, I'll leave you to it (creating your story). ..unless/until you have other questions that you want debated. :D

One thing I did want to comment on, as an aside: Assuming we follow the Viconia betrays the PC at the ToL scenario.. why would Jon give a rats arse about Viconia. Far as he's concerned he doesn't need anyone. ..she comes in de-facto. And, could Jon (the wanna-be-god) really do anything about a geas?

Edited by Cybersquirt, 10 April 2004 - 09:51 PM.

Stupid is as stupid does.

#12 Zandilar

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Posted 11 April 2004 - 12:10 AM

But it is also so full of holes (yes, I know, it's sketchy), as to be unworkable.

LOL.. I LIKE that quest. MUST you kill ALL my hope? :D

Well, I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'm not a lore person, I like a good story. So I'm rather in over my head now (and there's really nothing new to add). That said, until I see something concrete from you, I'll leave you to it (creating your story). ..unless/until you have other questions that you want debated. :D

One thing I did want to comment on, as an aside: Assuming we follow the Viconia betrays the PC at the ToL scenario.. why would Jon give a rats arse about Viconia. Far as he's concerned he doesn't need anyone. ..she comes in de-facto. And, could Jon (the wanna-be-god) really do anything about a geas?


There probably are ways to make it workable, but they all end up with Viconia leaving the party in the lurch. :D (None of them would involve Viconia truely trying to go back to Lolth - and probably would be some way of her attempting to throw Lolths influence off herself forever... Something Shar could ensure for Viconia I'm sure... Especially if she did some great service for Her... such as making sure those eggs do get destroyed...)

I don't think we really want a "Viconia always leaves the party" type scenario. :D

Obviously there are people out there who would prefer to see Viconia remaining evil - and the way it works at the moment, during ToB, if you do nothing she stays evil. You actually have to work to get her to change her ways... Which is as it should be. But this process should begin during SoA not ToB! It's like three conversations and you're done - Viconia is True Neutral... Viconia could stay worshiping Shar as True Neutral, but if she really wants to change her ways (and this is what they blatantly imply in her alignment change scenario), Viconia will eventually need to seek a new deity - this won't be actually covered in my Mod, but I will make damned sure that it will at least get mentioned.

On Irenicus: Good points, and something I would have to reconcider at some point, but the aim of this mod is not to make her evil, nor is it to make her conform to her deity. It's to add a friendship (with both genders) and a possible romance (with a female PC) to the character. :D

Maybe I'm just being stubborn on this point. Viconia hardly ever shows her "evilness", and even that little quest seemed more motivated by "I want to be accepted, and I'm tired of being persecuted" rather than "I am a self centered ruthless bitch who doesn't give a damn about anyone but myself and I'll do anything to get ahead." Viconia should know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Lolth will never accept her back, and that it would be pointless to try. Lolth is the sort to hold bitter grudges, and never let them go. She still does anything She can to act against the Seldarine when Her time could be better spent strengthening Her own people. Besides which, Viconia committed the ultimate sin of Lolth's religion - she questioned the goddess's wisdom and motives (the baby sacrifice thingy).

(Did I mention Shar and Lolth are in conflict too? Shar has the portfolio of the Underdark, and Lolth is enemies with nondrow deities of the Underdark).

#13 Zandilar

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Posted 11 April 2004 - 12:30 AM

I guess I just see Viconia's neutral evil alignment as being very fitting of the characterizations she displays in SoA.  NE people are often hedonistic, self-centered.  To me, Viccie just epitomizes these qualities.



Chaotically aligned people tend to be hedonistic too. :D (Yep, Chaotic Good ones too! Sharess, a CG deity, is the goddess of Hedonism!)

If those were the only two characteristics given to me without any other information, I'd say the character was Chaotic Neutral. :D

Neutral Evil, Maelfactor: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, wether for profit, sport, or conveniance. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has. The criminal who robs and murders to get what she wants is neutral evil.

Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.

Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.


Shar's Dogma

Reveal secrets only to fellow members of the faithful. Never follow hope or promises of success. Quench the light of the moon (agents and items of Selune), whenever you find it, and hide from it when you cannot prevail. The dark is a time to act, not wait. It is forbidden to strive to improve your lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by the faithful of the Dark Deity. Consorting with the faithful of Good deities is a sin except in business dealings or to corrupt them from their beliefs. Obey ranking clergy unless it would result in your own death.



#14 Cybersquirt

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Posted 11 April 2004 - 12:30 AM

(this post has been substantially Modified)

There probably are ways to make it workable, but they all end up with Viconia leaving the party in the lurch. :D  (None of them would involve Viconia truely trying to go back to Lolth - and probably would be some way of her attempting to throw Lolths influence off herself forever... Something Shar could ensure for Viconia I'm sure... Especially if she did some great service for Her... such as making sure those eggs do get destroyed...)

This quest is something that will hopefully be discussed further at http://forums.pocket....php?board=19.0 but, for now, is nothing. But that scenario conjure's interesting ideas. I agree that it needs work but think it would answer a lot of the 'just what's the deal with Viconia anyway' questions and attach her to the group more firmly in the end, because it cannot succeed.. if that makes sense. I thought you might appreciate the "She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs there" :D

I don't think we really want a "Viconia always leaves the party" type scenario. :D

Jaheira leaves a few times, why not Viconia? Or, do you mean gone as in gone for good?

Obviously there are people out there who would prefer to see Viconia remaining evil - and the way it works at the moment, during ToB, if you do nothing she stays evil. You actually have to work to get her to change her ways... Which is as it should be. But this process should begin during SoA not ToB!

I like her ..neutral, don't get me wrong but I think the only reason it'd need to start in SoA is because ToB is too short. I like the end-game to her relationship in SoA and to begin a 'neutralizing' process in SoA would mess with that. And, in a way, it is a process in SoA as well; it occurs to me that her's really is a love conquers all story, in that it is only her relationship with the PC (and lack thereof in the beginning of ToB) that becomes the basis for her to question anything of an emotional nature. (was that mentioned by you before? ..the love conquers all bit? :D )

Maybe I'm just being stubborn ogibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netn this point. Viconia hardly ever shows her "evilness", and even that little quest seemed more motivated by "I want to be accepted, and I'm tired of being persecuted" rather than "I am a self centered ruthless bitch who doesn't give a damn about anyone but myself and I'll do anything to get ahead."

To a point, yes. (I'm definitely being stubborn on this point :D) But several of her dialogues do hint at the f*ck you attitude that she should have - which, imo, is indicitave of the cop-out on bioWare's part. Beyond that, I think the only thing that tires her is: she is out of her element and alone. The next step would be wanting to be accepted and, imo, she's too drow for that yet. (I'll get it out, coherently, one of these days). I'm left wondering if you think that's what she wants but doesn't know it? (to be accepted?) :D If you take her down the road you seem to be suggesting it would almost have to mean having a different ending than the male relationship.. I think. Which would be risky, to say the least. :D

Viconia should know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Lolth will never accept her back, and that it would be pointless to try.

Without the cut quest, mentioned above, she does. But she is like most passionate characters who suffer ..lapses, not necessarily in judgement but of reality in certain moments of crisis, I think. But then, I would be arguing for why the cut quest could work, and I don't want to do that here. Needless to say, I think she does know.. with Lolth hunting her in the end of SoA, how could she not?

(Did I mention Shar and Lolth are in conflict too? Shar has the portfolio of the Underdark, and Lolth is enemies with nondrow deities of the Underdark).

I am aware of Shar and Lolth.. learned quite a bit about Shar in other deity discussions, and Lolth thru Salvatore and discussions (Salvatore is a putz but it's still canon yes?). And, because of the nature of evil and chaos, it makes sense that they would be rivals. But no, I didn't realize that they were.

One last thought:

Viconia could stay worshiping Shar as True Neutral, but if she really wants to change her ways (and this is what they blatantly imply in her alignment change scenario), Viconia will eventually need to seek a new deity - this won't be actually covered in my Mod, but I will make damned sure that it will at least get mentioned.

It struck me that This is why Viconia Should meet the end of her days if she stays with the PC - he will most likely convert her, and she, subsequently, would then have to face that eventuality.. in that lapse is when Lolth has her greatest opportunity to finally take revenge. Or, it's something as simple as I've said before - Viconia's story, with the PC, is supposed to be tragic ..just as she promises.

Edited by Cybersquirt, 11 April 2004 - 03:54 AM.

Stupid is as stupid does.

#15 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 11 April 2004 - 05:09 AM

Shar is the Lady of Loss, so wouldn't she actually approve of Viconia betraying the party to the Drow? Also, as far as I can tell Shar doesn't consider Lolth to be an enemy; in fact, seeing as the seperation of the other Elven races and the Drow was one of the biggest losses Faerun has ever seen, Shar is probably rather pleased with Lolth :D.

It's true that Lolth considers all non-Drow Underdark deities to be her enemies, but what you're forgetting is that Lolth doesn't know that Shar is an Underdark deity! Lolth was enemies with Ibrandul, but Shar (who was also enemies with that deity), killed him, assumed his portfolio and started pretending to be him. Not even Lolth realizes that this has happened, so if she were to find out that Ibrandul were no more, whether she would be pleased with Shar or declare her an enemy is unclear.

Having said that there is some conflict of interest;, Shar is allied Talona and Lolth supports Loviator, and those two are bitter enemies. Shar is also allied with Lolth's rival Drow deity Vhaerun. Then again, I could see followers of Shar & Lolth potentially teaming up to fight against some kind of joint operation between the churces Selune & Elistraee.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 11 April 2004 - 05:15 AM.





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