Drew, on Jul 1 2005, 02:54 PM, said:
Rangers don't change racial enemies in 2e.
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NPC Tweak suggestions
Started by Moongaze, Jun 21 2005 02:19 AM
44 replies to this topic
#31
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Posted 30 June 2005 - 09:04 PM
The same rules that dictate that explicitly allow themselves to be overloaded in the name of a good story. Thus, as far as I'm concerned with the implementation of this mod, those rules can be ignored if they would leave a character eshcewed by their own personality. 'Because the rules say x, y, and z' is not a valid reason for something to be included, or not, in NPC Tweak.
#32 Guest_Clint_*
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Posted 02 July 2005 - 02:26 AM
IIRC, I believe that Valygar had a banter with Edwin, where Edwin noted that Valygar appeared to have some training in the arcane arts. Therefore it makes more sense that Valygar is a Stalker than any other kit or class in BG2/ToB - quite simply, there are too many banters in the game already showing him to be a ranger, and no other kit really fits the bill.
At first I thought that changing his favoured enemy might be prudent, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
Fact 1: He needs support to take a mage down, in the form of a rogue with use any item, another mage, or plenty of time for the protection to wear off.
Fact 2: It is best to take down the nastiest enemy that you can, as quickly as you can.
Putting these two things together... "I can't hurt mage X, and golem Y is too nasty to leave operational. Wouldn't it be wise then to focus on quickly eliminating golem Y?"
The only sensible option to change his favoured enemy to would be
1) Something nasty that he could kill whilst waiting for <CHARNAME> and co. to remove the protection on mage X.
2) Something that is frequently used by magi as meat shields.
Taking these two things into consideration, there is simply no reason to consider changing his favoured enemy.
The only modification(s) I would make to Valygar would be to change his proficencies at certain levels to ensure he has some blunt weaponry (e.g. the dagger proficency at level 9 makes no sense what-so-ever...).
At first I thought that changing his favoured enemy might be prudent, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
Fact 1: He needs support to take a mage down, in the form of a rogue with use any item, another mage, or plenty of time for the protection to wear off.
Fact 2: It is best to take down the nastiest enemy that you can, as quickly as you can.
Putting these two things together... "I can't hurt mage X, and golem Y is too nasty to leave operational. Wouldn't it be wise then to focus on quickly eliminating golem Y?"
The only sensible option to change his favoured enemy to would be
1) Something nasty that he could kill whilst waiting for <CHARNAME> and co. to remove the protection on mage X.
2) Something that is frequently used by magi as meat shields.
Taking these two things into consideration, there is simply no reason to consider changing his favoured enemy.
The only modification(s) I would make to Valygar would be to change his proficencies at certain levels to ensure he has some blunt weaponry (e.g. the dagger proficency at level 9 makes no sense what-so-ever...).
#33
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Posted 02 July 2005 - 02:05 PM
jester, on Jun 23 2005, 01:32 AM, said:
Valygar Golems??? for a ranger you would think there are a lot of creatures to fight out there. The only reason I find remotely rewarding is the one that mage often rely on golems as bodyguards, but still it is just too obvious. 
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change."
--Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real."
--Aral Vorkosigan
--Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real."
--Aral Vorkosigan
#34
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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:08 AM
Minsc the Barbarian
I've always thought of Minsc as a barbarian rather than a ranger.
His companionship with Boo might put him on as a ranger, but I see him more as a barbarian with a head injury, or perhaps the special ability of charm animal. In BG1, his weapon selection is melee-only, pointing to a very upfront fighter, though his dexterity is so relatively bad that he needs heavy armor (cancelling out the natural use of stealth) to survive those fights. And of course his stats don't even meet the minimum of the ranger class, and it's hard to believe in a 6-wisdom guy casting spells, if that stat is to have any meaning at all.. That they changed both his stats and weapon specs in BG2 I see more as a way to make him more powerful (and useful) in a much more 'power-gaming' game, than an attempt to 'adjust' him closer to his inner self..
My main selling point, though, is the describtion of the hathran (Dynaheir's class) in the FR:Campaign Setting, who is supposed to have a low level barbarian cohort escort her on her journey.. and presto! there is Minsc.
I've always thought of Minsc as a barbarian rather than a ranger.
His companionship with Boo might put him on as a ranger, but I see him more as a barbarian with a head injury, or perhaps the special ability of charm animal. In BG1, his weapon selection is melee-only, pointing to a very upfront fighter, though his dexterity is so relatively bad that he needs heavy armor (cancelling out the natural use of stealth) to survive those fights. And of course his stats don't even meet the minimum of the ranger class, and it's hard to believe in a 6-wisdom guy casting spells, if that stat is to have any meaning at all.. That they changed both his stats and weapon specs in BG2 I see more as a way to make him more powerful (and useful) in a much more 'power-gaming' game, than an attempt to 'adjust' him closer to his inner self..
My main selling point, though, is the describtion of the hathran (Dynaheir's class) in the FR:Campaign Setting, who is supposed to have a low level barbarian cohort escort her on her journey.. and presto! there is Minsc.
#36
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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:03 PM
I still argue that he shouldn't be able to cast spells, but yeh, he should still be a ranger. I actually made a mod that essentially alters his berserk so it doesn't suck and allows him to gain more uses of it while disabling his spell casting. Haven't released it anywhere though. (There's still one kink I'd like to work out. I'm a bit of a perfectionist.)
Incedentally, NIGHTMARE and I disagree on whether or not Minsc should suffer a spell casting penalty under ordinary play. Reading through the 2e rules it could go either way, depending on your interpretation. In 3e he would be unable to cast spells, though. We've discussed this before as well.
EDIT: it works perfectly now. Thanks, Andyr! I guess I should try to release it somewhere or something......
Incedentally, NIGHTMARE and I disagree on whether or not Minsc should suffer a spell casting penalty under ordinary play. Reading through the 2e rules it could go either way, depending on your interpretation. In 3e he would be unable to cast spells, though. We've discussed this before as well.
EDIT: it works perfectly now. Thanks, Andyr! I guess I should try to release it somewhere or something......
Edited by Drew, 25 July 2005 - 06:21 PM.
#37
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Posted 25 July 2005 - 07:25 PM
Poulsen, on Jul 26 2005, 12:13 AM, said:
My main selling point, though, is the describtion of the hathran (Dynaheir's class) in the FR:Campaign Setting, who is supposed to have a low level barbarian cohort escort her on her journey.. and presto! there is Minsc.
#38
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Posted 25 July 2005 - 09:42 PM
The main argument against Minsc being a barbarian is that he refers to himself as a Ranger. Repeatedly. And so does every other character in the game. Whatever is done to Minsc, I think he should be left a Ranger (perhaps with a specific kit) for that reason alone.
Edited by Drew, 25 July 2005 - 09:42 PM.
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Posted 15 August 2005 - 10:04 AM
I've mentioned this on another board but it seems apropos here so I'll repeat it.
Valygar being a stalker really annoys me. Being a scout in the army doesn't spell ranger in my mind; it just sounds like a soldier with scouting skills (which wouldn't be seen in BG2 because we don't have nonweapon profs). Rangers tend to be loners, and have intimate and magical connections with the land.
Oh yeah, he has a country house too. Sure, every rich pansy noble with a country house is a ranger, right?
Also, if he's a ranger and has a little band of rangers, why don't they do something about Madulf and the shade wolves? Why do the schlubs in Imnesvale sit around whining until the PC shows up?
Here's how I see it. Valygar entered the army and learned some soldiering skills, like any good patriotic noble kid. He grows up to be a fighter, shying away from the magical talents in his family. Yadda yadda yadda, then the planar shere show up and the Cowled Wizards start hunting him. He has to go into hiding. From his underground contacts who smuggle him out of the city and his ranger friends out in the country, he picks up a whole new set of skills -- thief skills. His ranger friends can teach him about some rangerly things, like stealth, but just being friends with rangers wouldn't necessarily impart their druidic abilities.
Note that he still wants to avoid magic though (not to mention, the Cowled Wizards seem to have the ability to know when a spell is cast in the city, so as a tactical matter he shouldn't be picking up magical skills anyway); instead, he develops all of the nonmagical skills available to BG2 people: fighting, and then the various thieving skills. Thi skill set fits his character. Also note that his story has a much better justification for dual-classing then, say, Anomen's or Nalia's.
Final note: why be so selective with this mod? Look at how the NPCkit mod allows you to choose any mage kit for imoen and Nalia -- why not pick the top three ideas from threads like this and make them all options during installation?
Valygar being a stalker really annoys me. Being a scout in the army doesn't spell ranger in my mind; it just sounds like a soldier with scouting skills (which wouldn't be seen in BG2 because we don't have nonweapon profs). Rangers tend to be loners, and have intimate and magical connections with the land.
Oh yeah, he has a country house too. Sure, every rich pansy noble with a country house is a ranger, right?
Also, if he's a ranger and has a little band of rangers, why don't they do something about Madulf and the shade wolves? Why do the schlubs in Imnesvale sit around whining until the PC shows up?
Here's how I see it. Valygar entered the army and learned some soldiering skills, like any good patriotic noble kid. He grows up to be a fighter, shying away from the magical talents in his family. Yadda yadda yadda, then the planar shere show up and the Cowled Wizards start hunting him. He has to go into hiding. From his underground contacts who smuggle him out of the city and his ranger friends out in the country, he picks up a whole new set of skills -- thief skills. His ranger friends can teach him about some rangerly things, like stealth, but just being friends with rangers wouldn't necessarily impart their druidic abilities.
Note that he still wants to avoid magic though (not to mention, the Cowled Wizards seem to have the ability to know when a spell is cast in the city, so as a tactical matter he shouldn't be picking up magical skills anyway); instead, he develops all of the nonmagical skills available to BG2 people: fighting, and then the various thieving skills. Thi skill set fits his character. Also note that his story has a much better justification for dual-classing then, say, Anomen's or Nalia's.
Final note: why be so selective with this mod? Look at how the NPCkit mod allows you to choose any mage kit for imoen and Nalia -- why not pick the top three ideas from threads like this and make them all options during installation?
#41
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Posted 18 August 2005 - 08:14 PM
Please keep in mind that on several different occasions Valygar is acknowledged by those around him as a Ranger. He also frequently refers to himself as a Ranger. Unless you plan on changing a substantial bit of the dialogue concerning Valygar it's going to look kind of funny having him not be a Ranger.
#42
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Posted 19 August 2005 - 08:29 PM
silas, on Aug 16 2005, 04:09 AM, said:
Here's how I see it. Valygar entered the army and learned some soldiering skills, like any good patriotic noble kid. He grows up to be a fighter, shying away from the magical talents in his family. Yadda yadda yadda, then the planar shere show up and the Cowled Wizards start hunting him. He has to go into hiding. From his underground contacts who smuggle him out of the city and his ranger friends out in the country, he picks up a whole new set of skills -- thief skills. His ranger friends can teach him about some rangerly things, like stealth, but just being friends with rangers wouldn't necessarily impart their druidic abilities.
Quote
Final note: why be so selective with this mod? Look at how the NPCkit mod allows you to choose any mage kit for imoen and Nalia -- why not pick the top three ideas from threads like this and make them all options during installation?
Edited by Orions_Stardom, 19 August 2005 - 08:30 PM.
#43
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Posted 05 October 2006 - 10:11 AM
Drew, on Jul 25 2005, 07:08 PM, said:
I still argue that he shouldn't be able to cast spells, but yeh, he should still be a ranger. I actually made a mod that essentially alters his berserk so it doesn't suck and allows him to gain more uses of it while disabling his spell casting. Haven't released it anywhere though. (There's still one kink I'd like to work out. I'm a bit of a perfectionist.)
Incedentally, NIGHTMARE and I disagree on whether or not Minsc should suffer a spell casting penalty under ordinary play. Reading through the 2e rules it could go either way, depending on your interpretation. In 3e he would be unable to cast spells, though. We've discussed this before as well.
EDIT: it works perfectly now. Thanks, Andyr! I guess I should try to release it somewhere or something......
Incedentally, NIGHTMARE and I disagree on whether or not Minsc should suffer a spell casting penalty under ordinary play. Reading through the 2e rules it could go either way, depending on your interpretation. In 3e he would be unable to cast spells, though. We've discussed this before as well.
EDIT: it works perfectly now. Thanks, Andyr! I guess I should try to release it somewhere or something......
So... anyone know where Drew's mod might be available?
Great discussions btw. I for one think the arguements for Valygar staying a stalker make the most sense.
Nalia does need some thieving skills to sneak out of the castle and 'slum' around.
Minsc... well, mincs is in some ways a humourous exception to all the rules and even common sense about classes/NPC's etc. He's unique. It's fun to RP a character who's not optimally built sometimes; with his stats optimally he'd make a better fighter or barb, but Minsc is Minsc. He should stay as he is.
I think most people would agree that the NPC who could benefit the most from tweaking is Cernd... he's just not THAT interesting as he is both from story/personality and the way those fit with his existing class/build. I just don't see this guy having a personality of someone who shapechanges into a werewolf, unless more material is given that would make sense out of such an apparent ill fitting choice of class (i.e. a blurb about a jeckyll and hyde kind of personality contrast for example). But maybe Divine Remix will make him more interesting.
#44 Guest_Lethe_*
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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:31 AM
I just thought to add a little about Valygar, on my opinions why it is plausible that he doesn't have any spellcasting abilities.
First, in one of his dialogues with Keldorn, Keldorn expresses concern that Valygar is an atheist, i.e. he does not profess faith in any deity. If he doesn't worship any power, then he shouldn't be able to cast spells, since in the game world, a ranger must pray to a power to receive spells.
Second, on the view that he should remain as a ranger because others address him as a ranger, I think it is also possible that he is a "ranger", but not the ranger class as it is in the game, but more a "ranger" as we know in modern armies.
If Valygar is not to have spellcasting abilities, Wizard Slayer seems to be the most logical class for him, given his hatred for magic.
First, in one of his dialogues with Keldorn, Keldorn expresses concern that Valygar is an atheist, i.e. he does not profess faith in any deity. If he doesn't worship any power, then he shouldn't be able to cast spells, since in the game world, a ranger must pray to a power to receive spells.
Second, on the view that he should remain as a ranger because others address him as a ranger, I think it is also possible that he is a "ranger", but not the ranger class as it is in the game, but more a "ranger" as we know in modern armies.
If Valygar is not to have spellcasting abilities, Wizard Slayer seems to be the most logical class for him, given his hatred for magic.
#45
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Posted 15 October 2007 - 03:11 PM
Lethe, on Jul 16 2007, 07:36 PM, said:
First, in one of his dialogues with Keldorn, Keldorn expresses concern that Valygar is an atheist, i.e. he does not profess faith in any deity. If he doesn't worship any power, then he shouldn't be able to cast spells, since in the game world, a ranger must pray to a power to receive spells.
Another possibility would be that Bioware took some liberties with Valygar's spellcasting ability. Instead of basing it on Faerun they could have used the default option from Greyhawk aka revering a principle/idea as replacemnet for revering a deity of any sort.
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