13 replies to this topic

[leania]

Hi.

Though I'm satisfied with most IRv3 state, I feel that Darts & Slings need to be buffed more.

In fact, the only advantage of Darts & Slings compared with Bows is to be able to use these with shield. However, who let the character using Darts/Sling be tanker? IMO, This can hardly be called "merit".

Generally Bows & Cross bows can deal much more damage than Slings/Darts. Even though Darts give 3apr, it has less DPS due to its poor THAC0 (Bows can take THAC0 advantage from both Bows and Arrows). I have tried to use Darts to Assassin, but it was really useless even when I was playing in BG1 part. Dagger was even rather useful to save proficiency by using throwing dagger.


As you know, Darts & Slings have many demerit to choose as main/sub-weapon: Few item lists compared with the other ranged weapons including throwable things, weak DPS, meaningless adavantage, and so on.

Long story short, I think dice of Darts should be changed from 3D to 4D (There is no 'trihedron' dice, you know). And Slings damage also should be increased by +1.

But honestly, I doubt whether these changes are sufficient to make Darts & Slings attractive as much as Bows, Cross bows, and even throwing weapons...

[Incantatar]

-The better ApR of the dart is a huge advantage. Darts aren't the best weapon to fight against a giant but they are one of the best to use against spell caster.
-Slings can be used by anyone and aren't they doing superior blunt damage now?
-D3 is not uncommen in D&D. You can simply use a D6 at the table.
-x-bows and bows are (historically) more efficient but they are more restricted

They don't need to be buffed.

[Ardanis]

Slings are still great for clerics, who can't use other ranged weapons and usually carry a shield.

Darts, otoh... I'd say it is the fast stock depletion, rather than lower damage, that puts them behind other ranged proficiencies. Perhaps reducing the price will help? Wounding/Stunning darts, with 3 base ApR, can be quite effective against heavier opponents due to their secondary effects.

[Ardanis]

Quote

Long story short, I think dice of Darts should be changed from 3D to 4D (There is no 'trihedron' dice, you know). And Slings damage also should be increased by +1.

I forgot to mention, that you can do it yourself by adjusting the Weapon Changes component. To do so, open the "item_rev/lib/irv3_weapon_stats.txt" file and update stats to desired values, then install the component.

[leania]

I've forgot to appreciate your reply! Ardanis, thank you for the information.

BTW, could I also modify weapon's APR personally? Although I checked the document, there is no factor to modify ARP value.

Actually, I finally felt that Slings would be better to take 1.5 APR like Bows instead of +1 additional damage as I mentioned before. Since Slings have 1D4 damage which is lower than Bows' damage and few type of Bullets, I thought it is sufficient trade-off between a merit, i.e., Slings are 1-handed weapon style weapon (that allows using shield at the same time) and above demerits.

I partially agree with Ardanis, however, I often use Throwing Warhammer instead of Sling for Clerics. Additional mod should be required for it though... (Thrown Hammers Mod)

Lastly, I still think Darts need to be improved slightly. Even though it has the highest APR among ranged weapon, this is the only one of the ranged weapon that can obtain THAC0/damage bonuses from itself only (I mean that Bows can obtain the bonuses from both Bows and Arrows, X-bows from both X-bows and Bolts, and Slings from both Slings and Bullets...). As a result, It makes that Darts have the lowest THAC0/damage and even the expected damage is also obviously lower than the other ranged weapons. I have played BG1 & BG2 parts with IR/SR and SCS/SCSII and have tried to use Darts effectively (by targetting mage first in order to disturb their casting as Incantatar said), However, the poor THAC0 was the sigificant problem (enemy mages have been used defensive/protection spells very well in SCS/SCSII, you know). I felt that Bows with Arrow of Biting/X-Bows with Bolt of Biting are perfactly better to block caster's spell casting to me.

[Adanedhel]

IIRC The ranged weapons ApR is set by item own effect. Pretty easy to modify with an IE editor like NI or DLTCEP.

[Demivrgvs]

Slings

leania, on 19 July 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I finally felt that Slings would be better to take 1.5 APR like Bows instead of +1 additional damage as I mentioned before. Since Slings have 1D4 damage which is lower than Bows' damage and few type of Bullets, I thought it is sufficient trade-off between a merit, i.e., Slings are 1-handed weapon style weapon (that allows using shield at the same time) and above demerits.

Actually sling's bullets does 1d4+1 dmg, which is as much as arrow's 1d6. Right now the trade off is that bows get +1/2 apr and slings can be used while wielding a shield. If you give +1/2 apr to slings (which is also unrealistic because irl the firing rate of a sling is kinda slow) then they will be better than bows in every aspect.

The low amount of different types of bullet is another story, and I'll try to rectify it.

Darts

Quote

Lastly, I still think Darts need to be improved slightly. Even though it has the highest APR among ranged weapon, this is the only one of the ranged weapon that can obtain THAC0/damage bonuses from itself only (I mean that Bows can obtain the bonuses from both Bows and Arrows, X-bows from both X-bows and Bolts, and Slings from both Slings and Bullets...). As a result, It makes that Darts have the lowest THAC0/damage and even the expected damage is also obviously lower than the other ranged weapons. I have played BG1 & BG2 parts with IR/SR and SCS/SCSII and have tried to use Darts effectively (by targetting mage first in order to disturb their casting as Incantatar said), However, the poor THAC0 was the sigificant problem (enemy mages have been used defensive/protection spells very well in SCS/SCSII, you know). I felt that Bows with Arrow of Biting/X-Bows with Bolt of Biting are perfactly better to block caster's spell casting to me.

I'm kinda sympathetic to this instead, though I'm not sure darts really needs a buff. Increasing the damage from 1d3 to 1d4 would make them outshine throwing daggers (same dmg, lower apr). If I had to pick something I'd say +1 thac0.

If you ask me, a plain dart is indeed less appealing than other ranged weapons, but if you add special effects (e.g. Assassin's poison ability) they start to really shine because of their very high apr.

[leania]

Demivrgvs, on 21 July 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Slings
Actually sling's bullets does 1d4+1 dmg, which is as much as arrow's 1d6. Right now the trade off is that bows get +1/2 apr and slings can be used while wielding a shield. If you give +1/2 apr to slings (which is also unrealistic because irl the firing rate of a sling is kinda slow) then they will be better than bows in every aspect.

The low amount of different types of bullet is another story, and I'll try to rectify it.

Thank you for the reply. Hmm... I need to think about it.

Demivrgvs, on 21 July 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Darts
I'm kinda sympathetic to this instead, though I'm not sure darts really needs a buff. Increasing the damage from 1d3 to 1d4 would make them outshine throwing daggers (same dmg, lower apr). If I had to pick something I'd say +1 thac0.

If you ask me, a plain dart is indeed less appealing than other ranged weapons, but if you add special effects (e.g. Assassin's poison ability) they start to really shine because of their very high apr.

Yes, Darts would be perfactly better than Throwing daggers, and that is intended to me because Darts are ranged-only weapon. In addition, though you mentioned that the low amount of different types of weapon is another story previously, Darts only have 4 type of weapons now and only 1 is returing Dart. The number of Throwing Daggers is same to Darts' (including poisoning throwing dagger in vanilla) and most of them have more attractive on-hit options than Darts. Furthermore, these can be used as melee weapon.

But, yes, +1 THAC0 might be better than changing 1D3 to 1D4.

[leania]

Hmm... I conclude myself why I thought "Bows are better than Slings".

I played BGT with RR mod, and I finally noticed 3 things.

First, there is little magical slings in BG1. Second, +1~+2 Bows (especially Composite Short Bow) can be obtained VERY easily in the early of game. The last one is that some arrows (Arrow of Biting?) are really powerful in BG1.

Ya, in theory, Darts/Slings are not so bad as much as I said. But, I can say these might be worse than Bows/X-Bows based on the my experimental result.

[Demivrgvs]

leania, on 21 July 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Hmm... I conclude myself why I thought "Bows are better than Slings".

I played BGT with RR mod, and I finally noticed 3 things.

First, there is little magical slings in BG1. Second, +1~+2 Bows (especially Composite Short Bow) can be obtained VERY easily in the early of game. The last one is that some arrows (Arrow of Biting?) are really powerful in BG1.

Ya, in theory, Darts/Slings are not so bad as much as I said. But, I can say these might be worse than Bows/X-Bows based on the my experimental result.

Ok, but there's a big difference between "balance between weapon stats" and "availability" of weapon specimens. So, if we want to speak of the latter then yes, bows/arrows tend to be the better choice because there are slightly more unique specimens and much more types of ammo with great properties, some of which completely unavailable to other ranged weapons (e.g. Arrow of Dispel, Arrow of Detonation, Arrow of Slaying, etc.).

In terms of unique specimens I'm relatively satisfied of what I did with V3 (e.g. BG1 got Sling of Seeking). Bows indeed have more variety, but xbows and slings should have enough variety to cover most "roles" (e.g. a damage-dealer specimen, a very accurate one, a no-ammo variant, etc.).

In terms of ammo instead arrows are still the clear winners. I tried to start reducing the gap re-introducing or adding new unique bolts (e.g. Bolt of Polymorphing and Blessed Bolts) and bullets (e.g. Bullet of Smiting), but I admit we still need to do something to even the odds and make each type of launcher almost equally appealing in terms of ammo types (darts need new unique specimens too).

Edited by Demivrgvs, 21 July 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[leania]

Thank you for the reply. IR already did great work and I'm really satisfied it. I just wanted to discuss something more for making it perfact, haha.

[Pacek]

I don't think darts and slings should ever be balanced to be the equal of bows, there's a reason bows are restricted towards the more martial classes.

[leania]

Yes, I agree with Pacek. But, even if Darts are improved as I mentioned previousely these would not be equal to Bows/X-Bows.

Darts just provide combat abilities not equipped abilities like ammo (Arrows/Bolts) and have shorter range/worse THAC0 than Bows/X-Bows. Furthermore, ammos of Bows/X-Bows give much more adaptabilities on combat (there are no Darts of each elemental type, etc.). Even if the dice is changed to 1D4 from 1D3 no warriors would choose Darts as their weapon instead of Bows/X-Bows, even Daggers (Dagger can be used as melee weapon either with their STR bonus) imo.

In case of Slings, yes, I agreed with Demi. Slings might not need to be improved.

Edited by leania, 23 July 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[subtledoctor]

I don't think everything needs to be balanced... in my install I generally nerf darts to 2 APR, and daggers to 3/2. The mage throwing darts because he ran out of spells isn't supposed to be able to deal out DPS like the archer with a longbow. It's inferior by design, and that's okay... especially since the stunning/wounding effects of the various magical darts in the game are so powerful.

Slings, on the other hand: there are relatively few magical slings in the game, and relatively few magical bullets, and VERY few bullets with useful secondary effects (I know IR adds one... but just one). So I buff them to use crushing damage. They are, after all, a very different projectile: every other projectile involves a piercing wound, whereas with a sling you're getting hit by a fist-sized rock. (I set bows at 2d3 damage, so the number at least is properly superior.)

I just don't know what to do with crossbows. Right now they are 1d8 damage and 1 base APR, which is okay... but the 50% APR advantage of bows quickly disappears, because APR increases don't scale along that ratio. A 13th-level warrior with 2 pips of specialization would get 5/2 APR with crossbows, and 3 with bows - so bows only have a 20% advantage, which doesn't make up for the base damage difference. Apply haste or grandmastery and it's only about 15%. I'm considering bumping the damage to 2d5, (or maybe 1d8, and 1d8+2 for heavy crossbows) but limiting them to simple proficiency - 1 pip. The idea being that they are a simple "point, shoot" mechanical weapon and being extensively trained won't help as much with accuracy/APR as it would with other weapons.