60 replies to this topic

[Quester]

Hi, as a continuation of my previous post (for some reason I was unable to post in the stickied topic anymore), permission has been given for Yasraena and Faren to be added to Lvl1NPCs' list of changeable mod NPCs. If you could do a tiny update that would be just swell!

Here's the current status of the NPCs to be added:

Darian - permission granted
Yasraena - permission granted
Faren - permission granted
Yeslick (BG2 mod) - permission granted
Hubelpot - permission granted
Nathaniel - permission granted
Kiyone - permission granted
Kova - permission granted
Stivan - permission granted
Varshoon - permission denied
Ariena - pending
Kido - pending
Amber - pending
Callisto - permission denied
Ninafer - permission denied
Goo - permission assumed
Mur'neth - permission assumed
Kim - permission granted
Kitanya - permission granted
Miriam - permission granted
Neh'taniel - permission granted
Saerileth - permission granted
Tsujatha - permission granted
Arath - permission granted
IWD NPCs - permission granted

I'll edit this list as permissions are given or denied. I won't post links to every permission, but if not clearly stated then assume that permission was given on the respective mod's forum. For those not yet asked, feel free to help me out by finding the right forum / way of contacting the owner and asking them.

Edited by Miloch, 16 February 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Kaeloree]

You can add Yeslick and Nephele to that list as well.

[berelinde]

Just so you know, there is no such thing as a "tiny update". While I appreciate the desire not to impose, you should know that updating for one is the same amount of work as updating for 50. Just so you know. Implying that "Oh, it's just a little thing; I'm sure you won't mind" is the universal invocation for modders to unite in grumbling fury against their oppressors. Yeah, someone will see to it, but it's extremely unreasonable to assume that modders won't make a big deal of it just because you say it's no big deal. Updating site files is a hell of a lot of work, no matter how much you belittle it.

[Miloch]

We will add them in the next update, whenever that will be. You may want to do a more comprehensive list of the NPCs not added yet, and indicate the status. I know you've asked several, so you could do a list and indicate the status next to each NPC on your list (approved, rejected, pending, no action or the like). Might as well wait until we have some kind of response (or non-response) on most of the remaining worthwhile NPCs.

[Quester]

berelinde, on 27 January 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Just so you know, there is no such thing as a "tiny update". While I appreciate the desire not to impose, you should know that updating for one is the same amount of work as updating for 50. Just so you know. Implying that "Oh, it's just a little thing; I'm sure you won't mind" is the universal invocation for modders to unite in grumbling fury against their oppressors. Yeah, someone will see to it, but it's extremely unreasonable to assume that modders won't make a big deal of it just because you say it's no big deal. Updating site files is a hell of a lot of work, no matter how much you belittle it.

Okay, sorry for being such an oppressor. I actually thought it was just a matter of adding a few lines of code for each NPC.

Miloch, on 27 January 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

We will add them in the next update, whenever that will be. You may want to do a more comprehensive list of the NPCs not added yet, and indicate the status. I know you've asked several, so you could do a list and indicate the status next to each NPC on your list (approved, rejected, pending, no action or the like). Might as well wait until we have some kind of response (or non-response) on most of the remaining worthwhile NPCs.

I see. It will be a while. I was going to include a couple of the ones I suggested on a new playthrough, but I guess not this time around. Can't really do without lvl1NPCs after having used it for all my NPCs for so long.

Just out of curiosity though, were you really this thorough when adding all the current mod NPCs? As there must be like 50 or 60 of them that Lvl1NPCs includes as of the most recent version. To my mind, it seems a somewhat excessive courtesy measure. I can't see why anyone (any sane person, that is) would mind that their mod NPC was added to this list. It's not like Lvl1NPCs does any conceptual redesigning of said NPC, or actually even changes it in any way. It just gives the players some options, and basically allows them to enjoy a mod-added NPC even more.

Not to go on a rant or anything, but what's with the whole protective mod ownership thing anyway? Which modders asked for Bioware's permission to change their game in the first place? Please note I'm not advocating intellectual theft, just a bit more simple cooperation between modders and a bit less of the 'this is my mod and my baby and you can't touch it' mentality. How about sharing a little?

Okay, sorry for mini-rant.

[Miloch]

Quester, on 28 January 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity though, were you really this thorough when adding all the current mod NPCs? As there must be like 50 or 60 of them that Lvl1NPCs includes as of the most recent version.

Yes - see this thread for the history adding NPCs and what's involved with it. All 6 pages of it. See in particular the "controversy" with "permission" to add CA NPCs around p. 2 which one of the actual modders said was never granted until p. 5, much later. A lot of work for nothing - I don't really feel like going through that again.

Quote

To my mind, it seems a somewhat excessive courtesy measure. I can't see why anyone (any sane person, that is) would mind that their mod NPC was added to this list. It's not like Lvl1NPCs does any conceptual redesigning of said NPC, or actually even changes it in any way. It just gives the players some options, and basically allows them to enjoy a mod-added NPC even more.

Not to go on a rant or anything, but what's with the whole protective mod ownership thing anyway? Which modders asked for Bioware's permission to change their game in the first place? Please note I'm not advocating intellectual theft, just a bit more simple cooperation between modders and a bit less of the 'this is my mod and my baby and you can't touch it' mentality. How about sharing a little?

You are echoing what's already in the mod FAQ from the original author.

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Q: What about NPCs added by mods? Keto wants to be a skald!
A: None at this time. While I find it hypocritical for modders to declare their work sacrosanct, there's certainly a contingent who expect to have free reign trampling BioWare's intentions and other modders intentions and the player's intentions while expecting their own work to be pedestaled higher than, say, Shakespeare. So mod NPCs aren't and won't be included without permission.

See below that for the list of NPCs added as of v1.4 - there are more as of v1.9. But if we're going to do an update, it's going to be for more than just a couple NPCs and some non-critical items to address. So I suggest trying to secure more "permissions." Azazello offered to help if there's some you don't care to go after, maybe you two can split the work.

[Azazello]

Miloch, on 27 January 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

You may want to do a more comprehensive list of the NPCs not added yet, and indicate the status...next to each NPC on your list (approved, rejected, pending, no action or the like).

This is the best idea, as we (and everyone) can track the progress.

A pleasant consequence of seeing a chart or something might be that content owners who were previously silent or reluctant will open up to future approval.

I actually saw a nicely designed chart on another forum (also using IP.Board software) which'll be great for this task, let me find that post then we can use it as a template.

Quester, on 28 January 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Not to go on a rant or anything...

lol...

Quester, on 28 January 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

...but what's with the whole protective mod ownership thing anyway? Which modders asked for Bioware's permission to change their game in the first place? Please note I'm not advocating intellectual theft, just a bit more simple cooperation between modders and a bit less of the 'this is my mod and my baby and you can't touch it' mentality. How about sharing a little?

Okay, sorry for mini-rant.

Valid points. But I hope you see it from the other side. Here are 2 that I think think of:

[1] It IS their baby--so they should be able to do with their content what they like, even if it includes saying 'hands off'.
Mods are not public property, to do with whatever we like, with disregards to the content creators or maintainers wishes--even Creative Commons says so.

Personally, I believe content owners/maintainers can accept or reject without explanation for their decision. I just hope they're open & fair enough to hear-out our case, then make a decision with impartiality.

[2] even simpler reason-- We don't want bad blood in the community. There are 'personalities' all over the place, best to work with them than against them. Even if you get a rejection, let's be polite, considerate and mature in our dealings. We can always go back later to re-request approval, especially if we've shown our reputation is respectful.

[Quester]

A chart is fine, if you think we need one. I would be happy to ask around for permissions, though perhaps we can share that job, Az? If you're interested, that is.

Here are some NPCs that I would like to see added:

amber
ariena
callisto
ninafer
goo
hubelpot
kido
kim
kiyone
kova
kitanya
miriam
nathaniel
neh'taniel
saerileth
tsujatha
varshoon
stivan

There may a be few more not currently changeable but worth adding, but those are the main ones I'm interested in.

[Kaeloree]

I'm sure Feuille & Miss Sakaki would have no problem adding Nathaniel.

Contact Zyraen @ SHS for Kiyone/Kova.

Bookwyrme is the maintainer for Hubelpot.

[Bookwyrme]

Hubelpot is sort of in limbo at the moment, poor guy, but I certainly don't have any objection to him being in L1NPCs

Players should be aware that quite a few people refer to his profession, but I guess that's true of any NPC.

[Miloch]

K'aeloree (or any forum maintainer/staff) saying it's ok to mod one of their hosted NPCs is good enough for me. (That means it's their ass on the line in the unlikely event someone does complain heheh.) Incidentally, he already approved Nephele a couple releases ago or so (and is already a component).

See what I said above about Zyraen's response, but feel free trying to sway his opinion. He's a reasonable modder, so maybe more info will help if you feel strongly about it, e.g.:

There is an optional component of L1NPCs that lets you change references to the NPC's profession, within certain boundaries. It helps if I know the dialog files where such is referenced but if that info isn't immediately at hand, I can run some sort of arcane grep in some code I've forgotten how to execute, let alone write (*grumbles in orcish*).

I don't recognise most of the rest of those NPCs except Amber, which I did ask about but did not hear back from Meira, so feel free to post in her forum. She's not been frequent here, but hopefully she or someone else can speak up for Amber, eventually.

Incidentally, is there some sort of G3/SHS conspiracy to use exactly the same forum code with exactly the same glitches? Half the time I'm typing, I lose my post, only to recover it (usually) by clicking on "More Post Options" or something obtuse.

I don't think we really need a complex chart or anything, just the ones you've gotten approval for, the ones you've asked about, and the ones you haven't but would still like added. That list seems to reflect just the last category, no? I think you've gotten approval for at least one or two others (Darian at least).

Someone should also get cmorgan or whoever's got access to update the readme which refers to v1.7. I did mention it a while back, but he's a busy man with limited connectivity.

Edited by Miloch, 30 January 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Kaeloree]

It is obviously now the time to reveal that theacefes and I... ARE THE SAME PERSON! SHOCK! HORROR! SURPRISE! HORROR AGAIN!

Now with that out of the way, the forum software is the same, so it stands to reason.

I'm the de-facto maintainer of F&MS' mods, sort of, so yeah. I feel confident making that call.

[Quester]

Alright, here's the current status of the NPCs to be added:

Edit: see original post

Edited by Miloch, 02 February 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Quester]

Also: if any NPC mod creator who happens to read this doesn't see their NPC on the list, please feel free to speak up and allow it to be added along with the others.

[Dakk]

Just so it doesn't get lost in the hubbub (because it's a fairly unique set of NPC's):
Kulyok's request to have the IWD NPC's for the IWD-in-BG2 conversion added to L1NPC. The only existing NPC's there are for IWD-in-BG2 - and really well made too - so they're highly rated in my book!

Edited by Dakk, 31 January 2012 - 12:30 PM.