47 replies to this topic

[Salk]

 Demivrgvs, on 29 January 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

I hope I have been clear, have I?

Very. Thanks.

[Incantatar]

 Demivrgvs, on 29 January 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

 Salk, on 28 January 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Wait, now I even more confused, Ardanis. ...

so I thought that in order to have Dispel Magic and Mirror Image fixed, ToBEx alone wouldn't be enough but we need to install SR's as well while instead the Cure Sleep Fix is a mere duplication of effects that are already active and working by installing ToBEx alone?

What is it we must do?

What Ardanis was saying is that a future solution could be to check if ToBEx is installed and then apply our changes, because what you (Salk) are saying is correct: when it comes to Dispel and Mirror Image fixes, ToBEx hack by itself isn't enough (SR patches many itm and spl files to make it work as it should). ToBEx Cure Sleep fix instead works even without SR's stand-alone fix, but even then it wouldn't work by itself alone.

At least the Dispel spells should work with the ToBEx fix and without the SR fix (i think i tried it) but i didn't consider itm and other spl files. The ini changes in my post in the other thread are still needed it seems to make SR functional with ToBEx.

[Wyrd]

hi, i just want to signal that fiend summoning seem to be broken in SR 3.1, the summoned fiend is always hostile toward the caster and there's no dialogue line

i've tested it with a clean install of Tob+patch+SR 3.1, so i'm pretty sure it is a SR bug

[Demivrgvs]

 Wyrd, on 31 January 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

hi, i just want to signal that fiend summoning seem to be broken in SR 3.1, the summoned fiend is always hostile toward the caster and there's no dialogue line

i've tested it with a clean install of Tob+patch+SR 3.1, so i'm pretty sure it is a SR bug

?1? Very strange considering I haven't touched them at all since ages, and they worked fine back then. I'll look into it asap.

[Ascension64]

Quote

Mirror Image Fix
Dispel Magic Fix
Cure Sleep Fix

Both Mirror Image and Cure Sleep Fixes (the part that changes the bgmain.exe have identical implementations in TobEx and SR). Dispel Magic Fix if used in both SR and TobEx will still crash the game. If it is causing too much confusion, I can re-impelement the Dispel Magic Fix so that TobEx will override any other change to the .exe.

[Salk]

Just when I thought I got it right, here it appears I have not.

Demi and Ardanis were saying that

Quote

when it comes to Dispel and Mirror Image fixes, ToBEx hack by itself isn't enough (SR patches many itm and spl files to make it work as it should). ToBEx Cure Sleep fix instead works even without SR's stand-alone fix, but even then it wouldn't work by itself alone. It's just that SR's Sleep spell included in the main component is coded in a way that makes it work fine as long as 'cure sleep' opcode is fixed (be it via ToBEx or SR's similar component).

and now instead Ascension64 is telling me that I should not install both Dispel Magic Fixes together because it would crash the game.

What are we supposed to do?

[Demivrgvs]

 Salk, on 03 February 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Just when I thought I got it right, here it appears I have not.

Demi and Ardanis were saying that

Quote

when it comes to Dispel and Mirror Image fixes, ToBEx hack by itself isn't enough (SR patches many itm and spl files to make it work as it should). ToBEx Cure Sleep fix instead works even without SR's stand-alone fix, but even then it wouldn't work by itself alone. It's just that SR's Sleep spell included in the main component is coded in a way that makes it work fine as long as 'cure sleep' opcode is fixed (be it via ToBEx or SR's similar component).

and now instead Ascension64 is telling me that I should not install both Dispel Magic Fixes together because it would crash the game.

What are we supposed to do?

Ok, I'll try to explain once more than.

ToBEx is providing us (modders) tweaks/tools to fix or implement various features, but it's not a TweakPack mod by itself, it "only" provides the resources. It's up to mod/modders to then use such base material and tweak the game with it. At least, that's how I always considered A64 work, am I wrong?

Long story short:
* SR and ToBEx Cure Sleep fixes are identical, because even SR's one only fixes the opcode
* when it comes to Dispel and Mirror Image fix, you still need to skip ToBEx if you want to use SR ones, because our version of those fixes come with additional patching work to makethem fully implemented - ToBEx instead "only" provides to make those fixes possible, it doesn't fully tweak the game by itself

[Salk]

I perfectly understand what you are saying, Demi.

I am just waiting for Ascension64 to also tell me that it is true that the Dispel Fix and Mirror Image Fix of ToBEx do not really work unless a mod does "additional patching work to make them fully implemented".

It's not that I don't trust you, Demi. It's just that I'd like to know from Acension64 if this is the exact situation.

Cheers!

[Dakk]

I thought that the grouping of fixes in TobEx documentation with that starts with:

Quote

Effects
TobEx makes changes to the following effect opcodes:

are always in effect. That is, those opcodes are always fixed (in core component) and doesn't need activation via mod. In that group are Sleep, Mirror Image and Dispel Magic. Therefore I skipped all three of those components from SR, even though I could have installed the two former without any problem (according to Asc64).

Well, we'll see what hack-maestro has to say

Edited by Dakk, 04 February 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[Salk]

I reasoned exactly as Dakk did.

[Ascension64]

I fix the opcodes... SR may provide additional changes to game resources that TobEx won't do. I merely comment from a compatibility perspective whether TobEx and SR components will work together. If I re-implement Dispel Fix, you would be able to blindly install all the TobEx components with all the SR components and not have the game crash. That is my only concern. If SR does more tweaking/fixing of the game resources (which TobEx won't do), you would still need to use SR to benefit from those tweaks/fixes. I hope that makes sense.

[Salk]

 Ascension64, on 04 February 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

If I re-implement Dispel Fix, you would be able to blindly install all the TobEx components with all the SR components and not have the game crash.

This is the most desirable condition.

[Demivrgvs]

 Ascension64, on 04 February 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

I fix the opcodes... SR may provide additional changes to game resources that TobEx won't do. ... If SR does more tweaking/fixing of the game resources (which TobEx won't do), you would still need to use SR to benefit from those tweaks/fixes. I hope that makes sense.

Yep, as I tried to say, ToBEx fixes the opcodes, but then some additional tweaking has to be done indeed:
* Mirror Image: you allow us (modders) to flag spls we want to bypass MI, but afaik you don't directly edit those spells (SR tries to take into account mod-added ones)
* Dispel: you allow various option for the relative opcode, but afaik you don't impose it on all dispelling item/spells, neither you patch itm/spl that has to be, or not be, dispellable (e.g. certain magically created "weapons/attacks" have to be dispellable, but others are not)

Long story short, the best thing surely is to include ToBEx for SR V4, but until then I still have to suggest using SR's tweaks, and use ToBEx for everything else. Does it make installing the mods a real pain?

[Salk]

I don't mean to sound pushy or anything, Demi.

But SR v4 might be really far and configuring the .ini file of ToBEx to accommodate SR doesn't really sound as a good solution for the whole period. But if I understood well, something can be done on ToBEx's side? (see post above)

[Ardanis]

SR's Dispel Magic component actually includes two hacks, not one - the dispel formula fix and dispellable magical items. The former is incompatible with ToBEx, while the latter is overridden by it. A simple choice imo is to disable the first hack and call it a day - since formula fix is already provided by ToBEx.

Edited by Ardanis, 05 February 2012 - 07:35 AM.