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Elementals and hold immunity


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#1 aigleborgne

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 01:07 PM

Hello,

I'm wondering : elementals are immune to hold (and other immunities as well), but what about web effect ?
In game, hold and web effect are not the same effect, I don't know about P&P but I guess it should be the same effect.

Back to elementals, they are not immune to web effect and I think they should.
Seeing and big earth elemental held in a web seems not right... is it ?

#2 n-ghost

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 02:46 PM

SCS addresses this, I believe.

#3 aigleborgne

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:17 PM

Maybe, but elemental immunities are given by SR so I think it would be better if SR addresses this :)

Now, for my own install, I'll have my own mod that will surely include this immunity (I don't really use SCS, except maybe for a few components)

SCS addresses this, I believe.



#4 n-ghost

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 01:00 AM

New mods are well and good, but still, it's been roughly two years since SCS and SR are like salt and pepper/ham and cheese/Obi-Wan and Anakin. Meant to exist in tandem :D

Still much more things to do with other things, though.

(for example, there's a world of potential improvement within Durlag's Tower, it's still isn't that scary as it should be lore-wise. Maybe because doppelgangers in IE are not too scary to begin with.)

(other thing is implementing bleed effects here and there that wouldn't break a game, somehow)

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#5 Demivrgvs

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 01:52 AM

I'm wondering : elementals are immune to hold (and other immunities as well), but what about web effect ?
In game, hold and web effect are not the same effect, I don't know about P&P but I guess it should be the same effect.

Back to elementals, they are not immune to web effect and I think they should.
Seeing and big earth elemental held in a web seems not right... is it ?

Elementals are indeed immune to web effects within SR: immunity to opcode 109 can be found in the elemtype.itm ring assigned to them. To make such immunity work for any pre-existing elemental or mod-added ones I've also made it work the other way around: web spell doesn't work on them. If you find instances of this not working (e.g. custom web effects) let me know and I'll look into it!

#6 aigleborgne

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:03 AM

New mods are well and good, but still, it's been roughly two years since SCS and SR are like salt and pepper/ham and cheese/Obi-Wan and Anakin. Meant to exist in tandem :D
Still much more things to do with other things, though.
(for example, there's a world of potential improvement within Durlag's Tower, it's still isn't that scary as it should be lore-wise. Maybe because doppelgangers in IE are not too scary to begin with.)
(other thing is implementing bleed effects here and there that wouldn't break a game, somehow)
(and much more)


SCS doesn't add enough customization to the game for my taste. Plus, even without prep spells, some scripts actions break rules. But, I must admit that SCS is a brillant mod :)

I have started to work on my mod a long time ago, in 2005, but several long pauses due to real life. Regarding spellcasting, my mod is 100% made with SR in mind.
I will release an alpha version very soon (next week). This release will just show what we can expect from this mod on about 15 adventurers (like Davaeorn, Arkion, Amarande...).
My mod is highly customizable through configuration files, althrough this part requires some learning stages.

About Durlag's tower, I will revisit all monsters inside, but about greater doppelgangers, I'm not sure what to do. They are not real doppelgangers but a mix between their copy (islanne and her sons) and a greater doppelganger.
Currently, I have done nothing about them but others monsters are all patched. And I also think to introduce new monsters!

Elementals are indeed immune to web effects within SR: immunity to opcode 109 can be found in the elemtype.itm ring assigned to them. To make such immunity work for any pre-existing elemental or mod-added ones I've also made it work the other way around: web spell doesn't work on them. If you find instances of this not working (e.g. custom web effects) let me know and I'll look into it!


Well, it is strange because it doesn't work in my game and I mean, SR elementals.
Yes, elemtype give immunity to opcode 109 which is applied by web. But.... I can certify it isn't enough, and I tried several times :)
My test case: an enemy avenger cast an earth elemental then he cast web. You can often see the earth elemental stuck in web.

I added immunity to opcode 157 (Web effect) and it worked.

#7 DavidW

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:42 PM

SCS doesn't add enough customization to the game for my taste. Plus, even without prep spells, some scripts actions break rules.


This may be accidental. (There are three or four places where I know I break the rules, but there are probably many more where it's just a bug.) If you've got anything specific in mind, I'd be interested to know.

#8 polytope

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 05:05 PM

Yes, elemtype give immunity to opcode 109 which is applied by web. But.... I can certify it isn't enough, and I tried several times :)
My test case: an enemy avenger cast an earth elemental then he cast web. You can often see the earth elemental stuck in web.

I added immunity to opcode 157 (Web effect) and it worked.

I've mentioned this before, the 157 effect which is listed merely as an overlay actually paralyzes the target (and is the only thing which sets the Web stat to 1) - I suspect a "redundant" 109 was just added to set STATE_HELPLESS. This limits how much a modder can change the web spell without breaking AI scripts which may look for something like !CheckStatGT(LastSeenBy(Myself),0,WEB). I'm not sure what's more problematic, the overpowered original web or messing with AI.

Edited by polytope, 28 December 2011 - 05:06 PM.

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#9 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:33 PM

I've mentioned this before, the 157 effect which is listed merely as an overlay actually paralyzes the target (and is the only thing which sets the Web stat to 1) - I suspect a "redundant" 109 was just added to set STATE_HELPLESS.


Actually, #157 sets STATE_HELPLESS on its own.
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#10 aigleborgne

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 11:19 PM

Spells like detect invisibility are cast freely (forcespell or spellnodec, and without check memorized)
I don't remember every things I saw in SCS scripts but it is not the only one, althrough they aren't many either :)


This may be accidental. (There are three or four places where I know I break the rules, but there are probably many more where it's just a bug.) If you've got anything specific in mind, I'd be interested to know.



#11 aigleborgne

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 11:21 PM

Dunno what effect really do, but in my game, immunity to opcode 157 was necessary to make a creature immuned to web.
Did you try with and without ?


I've mentioned this before, the 157 effect which is listed merely as an overlay actually paralyzes the target (and is the only thing which sets the Web stat to 1) - I suspect a "redundant" 109 was just added to set STATE_HELPLESS.


Actually, #157 sets STATE_HELPLESS on its own.



#12 Demivrgvs

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 01:51 AM

Dunno what effect really do, but in my game, immunity to opcode 157 was necessary to make a creature immuned to web.
Did you try with and without ?



I've mentioned this before, the 157 effect which is listed merely as an overlay actually paralyzes the target (and is the only thing which sets the Web stat to 1) - I suspect a "redundant" 109 was just added to set STATE_HELPLESS.


Actually, #157 sets STATE_HELPLESS on its own.

Thanks for looking into it, though adding protection vs 157 won't be enough anyway as it would affect only SR's elementals. The real reason behind elementals not being immune to web is that the spell itself has a small typo. Two of EFF files used to make the spell not work on certain targets are referenced to GIANT, but the former should have been ELEMENTAL (145). Now it's fixed (for the upcoming release) and that will affect all pre-existing and mod-added elementals too. Both SR and IR work this way (using EFF files) since V3 and I think it's a better solution than spamming protection opcodes (aka immunities) on tons of cre files.



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