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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 06:25 AM

Let us know what you think of Item Revisions and how it could be improved.

#2 yarpen

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 11:53 AM

Wow. It's my first day of playing new IR and I'm charmed by quality of it. Stores Revision component is one of the nicest thing I've ever seen in mods. Demi and Ardanis, thank you for your hard work!

At the beginning I'm going to say that my modlist has standard: BG2 Fixpack, SCS2 (hard mode without hardcore), SR3, IR3 and I've tweaked Wizard Slayer kit to something close to KR initial version of it (explained in appropriate thread). Currently my party consists of protagonist Wizard Slayer who likes Long Swords, Short Swords and Longbows, Minsc, Aerie, Yoshimo, Korgan and I'm working on getting Edwin. And here are some of my insights:
- SCS battles are difficult, and IR isn't helping to be honest. I cannot afford most of potions (bad thing), don't mention items in shops (good thing). Powerlevel of equipment was severly decreased which makes things more fun. Sword of Arabane and Sword of Chaos are my strongest weapons right now, it's cool. Yet there's very low amount of Potion of Extra Healing and well, I'd still have to pay 300 gp for single one - even in shrines where it should be cheaper. Is there a good place for buying them cheaper? Guy in sewers?
- Wizard scrolls are quite rare. Cool thing. Priest scrolls were added. Also cool. But don't you think that Scroll for Raise Dead shouldn't cost 3/4 of price of Rod of Ressurection? Yeah, my Cleric isn't on level 9 yet and running to temples everytime Yoshimo dies hurts.
- I cannot find scroll with Haste. Can someone give some hints where I can grab one? Aerie doesn't know this spell and opponent's Slow decimates my party hard.

Someone should write a Guide about shops and merchants in Athkatla. That'd help a lot. Maybe it could be a book available in few places? :)

Oh, and I've seen Aeger's Hide in one shop. And here is my suggestion: rage when character is dropping to 25% is a) bad, because without potion he is going to die very soon b) bad, because you aren't going to see it much. I'd suggest do raise the life level to 40-50%.

#3 deducter

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:30 PM

Use a char or NPC with the best CHA to buy items, if you use Aerie and have her cast a friends spell beforehand and equip the Ring of Human Influence (+1 cha) you should be able to buy extra healing pots for like 120gp from temples, which is very affordable. Check around various other potion shops too, the Adventurer's Mart is the most expensive. There is at a temple in the Promenade, the Slums, the Bridge District, and 3 in the Temple District. Plus there are other potion sellers whose prices are also reasonable, I find no shortage of healing potions for sale. Use normal healing potions in between fights.

Deidre in the Adventurer's Mart has a lot of scrolls, I find it difficult to believe she doesn't have haste. Might cost a few hundred gp, but that's not much.

If you need magical weapons, get the Enchant Weapon Spell, it will give you a +3 weapon or 40 +3 ammunition of your choice, it's very useful before you have good items.

If Yoshimo keeps dying, buy pots of invis (they are like 100-200g), which is very reasonable. Have him backstab your opponents to death, which is what I do.

#4 deducter

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:10 PM

More observations:

-Amon of the Purple Brotherhood with a nice selection of scrolls, up to level 6, very nice touch.
-Bala's Axe should just dispel correct? That part works, but upon striking a miscast magic symbol appears on the struck character's portrait, which I assume is a bug, unless you also intend for the axe to apply some % miscast magic
-The library in de'Arnise keep has a nice collection of scrolls
-If I'm not mistaken, was more gold added to the stash in the room with Torgal? I know the scroll of Feeblemind was removed (appropriately), but I don't seem to recall there being 2k gold, but this might just be what was there originally. Regardless, the reward is quite appropriate now
-Xzar has 3 necromantic scrolls on him, nice touch
-Is Shield amulet just supposed to be +2 AC, not the spell Shield (so no protection from Magic Missiles anymore?)

Suggestions:
-The Rings of Elemental Control seem like they should have SOME sort of requirement for use. I have Minsc using it, but upon reflection it seems silly that he can use the abilities of the ring so readily. That lesser Earth Elemental is actually pretty nice early on, it does good damage and is a good tank. My suggestions are either:
1. Class restriction. I think Mage, Druid, Bard, and Thief are the best bets and makes the most sense, but this might be too limiting.
2. Intelligence restriction. I assume the special abilities of the rings require some sort of activation, perhaps a verbal command or some mental effort, but a minimum intelligence should be required. In the description of the Earth and Fire rings Thayvian wizards were mentioned, so the users should probably be fairly intelligent, like 13+ INT to use. This might be even more restrictive.
-I feel the price of the wands should be adjusted somewhat. I don't think any of the wands should cost more than 15k to buy, because gold is tighter, and potions or items so far are a much much better investment. Some wands are very good, in fact, the wand of sleep is useful and cost effective, I consider it much better than the elemental wands at least early on. The Wand of Missiles is also very useful, since pretty much any char can use it, and very good at disrupting enemy spellcasters.
At 18 CHA, Fire at 7.5k, frost/lightning at 10k, and monster summoning/cloudkill at 12.5k I think are better prices. Paralyzation should be much much cheaper, like the wand of sleep at 5k or so, since it is basically a single-target hold monster, whereas sleep is AOE. I'm not 100% sure what a truly balanced price is, but so far I feel most wands are too expensive.
-I do agree that most potion makers seem to only have 1-2 bottles of the various buff potions they carry, and that is rather few. Might I suggest increasing the quantity for certain merchants, for example, perhaps Roger the Fence can sell 4-5 bottles of the various thief-only potions and 1-2 bottles of some of the other potions. Similarly the various other potion makers can "specialize" in certain potions and have extra bottles for sale, to be decided as appropriate.

Edited by deducter, 26 August 2011 - 02:17 PM.


#5 Demivrgvs

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 03:08 PM

Nature's Vengeance

View Postdeducter, on Aug 31 2011, 10:55 PM, said:

According to the description of the Cloak of Nature's Vengeance, the 1d10 electrical damage should only apply if the wearer is struck by melee weapons. However, as long as the wearer is within a few feet of the target, any damage caused to the wearer will trigger the 1d10 reflective damage. This includes spells like fireball or magic missiles or even fireshield, so I can hurt a mage who cast fireshield and PFMW by hitting the mage and using the cloak's reflective damage. This is too powerful.
That's how any fireshield-like effect always worked (vanilla's spells too). If the problem is the "damage loop" caused by two fireshields damaging each other I guess making it not affect the same target more than once in 1-2 seconds could stop it. :p

Mace of Disruption

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I feel Mace of Disruption should be higher price too, I got it for around 9k, it should probably be several thousand gold higher.
Well, 9-10k may sound not to much, but you also need to spend 7.5k to upgrade it, and if you have a good party you should spend another 1k to but the illithium in the underdark. Isn't 15k enough to get it? :D

Harbinger

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Harbinger +3 has 1 equipped abliity and 3 combat abilities?? It looks almost like a +5 weapon.
Well, the equipped ability is a drawback (more like a cursed status) not a real ability, and one of the "combat ability" is just the material the blade is made of. Does it really look so imposing? :hm:

Quote

It has Demon Bane and starmetal, and since all demons are extraplanar creatures, the sword has an effective +12 damage to demons, which seems absolutely insane.
I'm sympathetic to this, but I'll wait to see if any other player (with actual playtesting) agrees with you, especially on a SCS install which grants demons tons of hit points.

Anyway, it surely isn't completely insane in the mid-late game imo. It deals 2d6 +13 vs demons, but Warblade pretty much deal the same damage (2d8 +3, +2d4) to ANY target, whereas this blade is 2d6+1 vs most targets.

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I'd recommend removing Demonbane, since the lore merely states that the sword trapped a demon, which I fail to see how that would enchant the sword to be more effective towards demons.
Demon Bane is pretty much mandatory, because most extraplanar creatures and demons require +3 enchantment. :)

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Also, just out of curiosity, "demon" here refers to both tanar'ri and baazetu?
Yes.

Dragonscale Shield
It's like Lawlight says. It's a bit tricky but I'm kinda forcing players to use the dragon set together. :p

Dwarven Large Shield

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The Dwarven Large Shield +2 is not a unique item, nor should it be. However, its description implies it is a unique item, so that should be changed.
I'm not following you here. Vanilla's lore made it pretty much clear the shield is unique. It was "unique" indeed in BG1, and in theory even in BG2 before they added a second copy on a WK's tiefling (and we removed this copy). Are you suggesting you'd prefer it to not be unique?

Rods

View PostLawlight, on Sep 1 2011, 12:20 AM, said:

What is about all the Rod's? Is there any chance that they get revised too, like Rod of Smiting? Some of them are really underpowerd (the terror one) and others really overpowered (resurrection (+100% heal Oo), reversal (breach would be enough I think...). At least, I would love to see a description update, because they don't fit the IR standart (their descriptions look kinda ugly xD). Rod of Lordly Might has some nice potential for an interesting weapon (universal) to help in low - mid game, maybe move it to an earlier place? The three weapons it can transform to have also potential for some more cool effects (and nice bams).
OMG, I forgot them!!! ;) Will include them asap!

#6 deducter

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 03:56 PM

Quote

The Dwarven Large Shield +2 is not a unique item, nor should it be. However, its description implies it is a unique item, so that should be changed.
I'm not following you here. Vanilla's lore made it pretty much clear the shield is unique. It was "unique" indeed in BG1, and in theory even in BG2 before they added a second copy on a WK's tiefling (and we removed this copy). Are you suggesting you'd prefer it to not be unique?

There is one being sold by Arnolinus the Armorer in the Promenade, and a second copy dropped from someone (I forgot who) in Samia's party in Windspear Hills. If this shield is supposed to be unique, one should be removed, probably the one in Windspear Hills.

Good point about the upgrade for the Mace of Disruption, I forgot about that. Fair enough, although you can also upgrade Azuredge too... Unless this was changed in IR v3.

I think you underestimate the power of these "bane" and reflective damage items quite a bit. I just used Minsc + Saving Grace + a whole bunch of defensive buffs and the MoD +4 to walk into the group of SCSII vampires in the Windspear Hills and completely destroy them. In terms of damage buffs, I had bless, that's it, no haste, no giant strength potion or potion of rage or Champion's Strength, etc. I was doing 30 damage per hit on average, this with a level 12 character. So many people complained about how powerful vampires are now in SCSII with their "drink blood" ability, but with the appropriate items Minsc had something like -20 effective AC against them. SCSII vampires also use their bats ability, which is counterproductive with Saving Grace since any sort of damage triggers the effect, much like the Cloak of Nature's Vengeance. This does quite a bit of damage when triggered several times a round, plus blinds all of them. I think you might actually want to reduce the power of bane items overall and limit the reflective items to trigger like once or twice a round.

I recommend potion of defense be unstackable with defensive harmony in SR.

About the Dragonscale Shield, I am suggesting that the description is changed to something along the lines of "This shield will protects the user form being blown away by shock waves, telekinesis, etc., although it does not prevent the user from taking damage or being knocked unconscious" just to make it accurate. This or a similar description makes it unambiguous. I like the way the shield works and how the helm complements it, but the description is misleading.

I have yet to get to Warblade, but just be wary of introducing so many high damaging items.

Edited by deducter, 31 August 2011 - 03:58 PM.


#7 Lawlight

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:06 PM

My thoughts on bane weapons in general:
They fit very well to the magic IR does: variety. Each item is at least usefull in some particular scenarios and you can prepare for each fight equip-wise -> thats interesting / fun! So I'm totally againt removing any of them. Regarding the power of them: they really should outshine other weapons in the same levelrange for the particular racetype. Otherwise they are quite useless. I will take an eye on it during my playthrough.

And because I like Bane Weapons: Can Spiderbane be a real Bane Weapon too? (more in the +4 dmg range like sword of balduran because of bg1 balance) I play BGT and it would be cool. And I really would like to see it in Bg2 too.

Edited by Lawlight, 31 August 2011 - 05:25 PM.


#8 Demivrgvs

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 12:47 AM

Dwarven Large Shield

View Postdeducter, on Sep 1 2011, 01:56 AM, said:

There is one being sold by Arnolinus the Armorer in the Promenade, and a second copy dropped from someone (I forgot who) in Samia's party in Windspear Hills. If this shield is supposed to be unique, one should be removed, probably the one in Windspear Hills.
Will fix then.

MoD & Azuredge

Quote

Good point about the upgrade for the Mace of Disruption, I forgot about that. Fair enough, although you can also upgrade Azuredge too... Unless this was changed in IR v3.
Azuredge has never been upgradeable unless you play with Item Upgrade.

Bane Weapons & fireshield-like effects

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I think you underestimate the power of these "bane" and reflective damage items quite a bit. ... I think you might actually want to reduce the power of bane items overall and limit the reflective items to trigger like once or twice a round.
For bane weapons it's like Lawlight just said, against their favored enemy they need to outshine most non-focused items, else they are pointless. One thing I could do is making 1handed bane weapons deal 6 additional points of damage instead of 8, leaving a net +2 bonus for 2handed ones. I really don't think I can lower it to something like 4-6 though, because most bane weapons have a base enchantment lvl of +1 (aka +1 base dmg), and +4 dmg isn't going to make enough difference when there are around tons of +3/+4 weapons with non-focused and more powerful abilities.

When it comes to fireshield-like effects instead I don't know. I have to think about them because I'm not sure my previous suggestion to stop "2xshields dmg-loop" can be extended to the point that a fireshield can only work once per round (e.g. the 4th lvl spell would become utterly useless if working this way).

Potion of Defense

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I recommend potion of defense be unstackable with defensive harmony in SR.
Conceptually I really cannot do that. Balance wise I don't know.

Dragon Scale Shield

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About the Dragonscale Shield, I am suggesting that the description is changed to something along the lines of "This shield will protects the user form being blown away by shock waves, telekinesis, etc., although it does not prevent the user from taking damage or being knocked unconscious" just to make it accurate. This or a similar description makes it unambiguous. I like the way the shield works and how the helm complements it, but the description is misleading.
I'll look into it, though as Lawlight pointed out, if you look at its "data sheet" and not its lore, what the shield does is very clear (wielder is immune to everything, magical and otherwise, that pushes him away).

Spider Bane
Yes I do thought about adding a small +4 dmg bonus vs spiders, though the sword already is the bane of spiders considering it now makes the wielder immune to both poison and web, leaving them pretty much harmless.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 01 September 2011 - 12:50 AM.


#9 deducter

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:33 PM

I still feel a significant nerf to Mace of Disruption is necessary. My understanding is that part of the purpose of this mod is to balance items, so we no longer had one-item-wonders and situations like the old Cloak of Cheese to equip to charge in and slaughter any spellcaster, to give the most egregious example. Most players in Vanilla have probably equipped the Mace of Disruption on one character to regularly clean out dens of undead with no trouble. This hasn't changed, if anything, the mace feels more destructive now, since I am destroying the significantly upgraded SCSII vampires with them without batting an eye. For instance, I feel Daystar is a great example of an anti-undead weapon. It still does outstanding damage, but it doesn't force a save vs death or die, and the Sunray ability is plenty awesome, the weapon feels worthy and powerful but not too powerful. Rift Hammer is another great example of a generally balanced weapon, when the Sonic Wave procs I am always delighted. But the one-item wonders should be no good, bane weapons or not.

The thing about MoD in particular is that undead are a very general and plentiful enemy and the disruption ability combine to make this item a one-weapon wonder, to the point where I don't bother to do anything else except plan my vs undead strategy around this one weapon.

I recommend that MoD be either
1)Cleric only. Truly a radical change, but the lore does suggest that only powerful clerics wield such weapons. Warriors still have good old Azuredge (as long as they are not evil) and Daystar even items like Equalizer, since nearly all undead are one form or another of evil. Plus they still have access to very useful anti-undead items like Saving Grace and Periapt of Life Protection, etc. The MoD would still be amazing, and will likely force the entire party into combat, with the powerful cleric at the front swinging the mace.
2)Reduce the MoD to have something like a 25% or 50% chance of causing disruption. Even with such a nerf, MoD is still clearly the best antiundead weapon when it can do 30 damage per regular hit with almost no damage buffs. I don't remember doing 30 damage per regular hit in Vanilla with most weapons...
3)Or both these changes, after which I feel the mace would STILL be the best anti-undead weapon...

In either case I do feel one-handed weapons bane should be reduced in terms of their raw damage. Consider also reducing the base +thac0 and +damage of the MoD +4 to +1, and the bane to +6, which should help somewhat.

I think Azuredge needs to have its disruption ability remove altogether and the bane damage reduce to +6. Do you really want two items running around that force the same general type of enemy to save or die? After all, It'll still be an outstanding weapon, since it is thrown, making it particularly good for liches.

#10 Demivrgvs

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 06:09 PM

Mace of Disruption

View Postdeducter, on Sep 2 2011, 02:33 AM, said:

I still feel a significant nerf to Mace of Disruption is necessary. ... if anything, the mace feels more destructive now, since I am destroying the significantly upgraded SCSII vampires with them without batting an eye. ... The thing about MoD in particular is that undead are a very general and plentiful enemy and the disruption ability combine to make this item a one-weapon wonder, to the point where I don't bother to do anything else except plan my vs undead strategy around this one weapon.
I already felt MoD was still a tad OP, I was only waiting to see if I was the only one thinking it. :) The balance problems are caused by its Disruption effect, which is still too much powerful imo even after my considerable nerf (I removed the huge -4 penalty to its save). Thing is, that most undead creatures (ironically) have very bad saves vs death, and even liches are almost hilariously easy to destroy (with vanilla's MoD they had only 30% chance to survive a hit, and even now they still survive only 50% of times).

Btw, this weapon surely isn't more powerful than it was in vanilla imo, but its damage output is indeed slightly better now because its "dmg bonus vs undead" currently is a fixed +8 instead of vanilla's 1d6+2. Making 1handed bane weapons deal +6 dmg will pretty much restore vanilla's value in this case (6 instead of 5.5).

Quote

I recommend that MoD be either
1)Cleric only...
2)Reduce the MoD to have something like a 25% or 50% chance of causing disruption...
3)Or both these changes...
I could actually don't mind making it cleric-only but I'm almost sure half of players would really hate it...am I wrong? That being said, this would be a partial solution anyway, considering having a cleric in the party is almost a must, and quite often he/she is a fighter-cleric.

Personally I'd try the following for a start before going for a more radical solution:
a) make it deal +6 dmg vs undead instead of +8
b) grant a +2 save bonus to avoid disruption
My b) and your 2) are pretty much the same thing. My solution surely is less drastic, but stress the fact powerful undead should be more resistant to it.

Bane Weapons

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In either case I do feel one-handed weapons bane should be reduced in terms of their raw damage.
As I said I'm all for making 1handed bane weapons deal +6 dmg instead of +8. I think I'll include this global change in the next update.

Azuredge

Quote

I think Azuredge needs to have its disruption ability remove altogether and the bane damage reduce to +6. Do you really want two items running around that force the same general type of enemy to save or die? After all, It'll still be an outstanding weapon, since it is thrown, making it particularly good for liches.
I'm starting to really like you! ;) Jokes aside, this is again something I do wanted to do (actually I'm pretty sure I suggested it myself back then). I had quite a few reasons to remove Disruption effect from this axe:
* balance-wise this is even worse than MoD, its a ranged MoD!
* Disruption effect can only be applied to blunt weapons within PnP
* as you say, having two uber-focused, almost identical weapons isn't a great idea imo
The reasons I left it unchanged are:
* fear of players killing me for nerfing another weapon :p
* lack of better ideas

Simply nerfing it isn't an option imo, we would just end up with an unappealing lesser MoD (though being ranged could make it appealing anyway, does it? :p ), thus if we decide to remove the Disrupt effect I need to make it unique in another way. To partially make up for it back then I thought about keeping it at least as a Vampire Slaying or something similar, but it's not that great, and I'd need something more on top of it anyway imo. Any suggestion?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 01 September 2011 - 06:15 PM.


#11 Ardanis

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:49 PM

Yes for +6 damage Bane. If you ask me, even +4 as 1h and +6 as 2h might be fine.

MoD - I don't eqiup it to not-priestly classes anyway...
Change the slaying effect of Disruption to daze/stun. Then it will still disrupt undead, just temporary instead of permanently.

Azuredge - I think +3 ranged weapon is fine with Bane only.
Never liked it's cheap BAM btw... all red, even handle. While judging by the name, I'd expect it to have an azure-edged blade.
Maybe Keen here, that was removed from another throwing axe? Throwing weapons can't really be dual-wielded anyway.


PS I don't think MoD-Azuredge is actually related to bugs/fixes, btw...

Edited by Ardanis, 01 September 2011 - 08:52 PM.

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#12 Salk

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 12:14 AM

Mace of Disruption

At the moment I find it only slightly overpowered because a really overpowered item, in my opinion, is one granting an advantage in any situation. This is not the case for this weapon, which is extremely powerful only against undead.

Still, I would welcome its limitations of usability to cleric only (multiclass too, though) while it'd be too much to change the malus to disruption into a bonus. I agree instead about lowering the bonus from +8 to + 6 (a +4 instead is too much of a nerf).

So to summarize:

- Only for clerics
- +6 vs Undead

#13 Shaitan

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 12:40 AM

View PostSalk, on Sep 2 2011, 10:14 AM, said:

Mace of Disruption

At the moment I find it only slightly overpowered because a really overpowered item, in my opinion, is one granting an advantage in any situation. This is not the case for this weapon, which is extremely powerful only against undead.

Still, I would welcome its limitations of usability to cleric only (multiclass too, though) while it'd be too much to change the malus to disruption into a bonus. I agree instead about lowering the bonus from +8 to + 6 (a +4 instead is too much of a nerf).

So to summarize:

- Only for clerics
- +6 vs Undead
As allways - we agree.

I'd vote for a heavy Azuredge nerf too.
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#14 Dakk

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 02:15 AM

View PostSalk, on Sep 2 2011, 09:14 AM, said:

- Only for clerics
- +6 vs Undead
Agreed.

#15 Lawlight

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:35 AM

Quote

Yes for +6 damage Bane. If you ask me, even +4 as 1h and +6 as 2h might be fine.

+4 would make 1h bane weapons quite pointless. I agree with +6 for 1h though. And I agree with removing diruption from azuredge and instead grating it a more unique ability, but the Description have to be changed then. Furthermore, granting only clerics the ability to wield MoD was long overdue, but I think it really fits to Paladins very well too. At least, it should be useable by Undead Hunter's. Personally, I also like the idea of a +2 save bonus to avoid disruption.

As for MoD I vote for:
- only useable by Cleric & Paladin (at least Undead Hunter)
- + 6 damage against undeads
- +1 (maybe +2) save bonus to avoid disruption

Summary for Azure Edge:
- needs a new BAM
- disrution effect has to be removed (and description slightly altered)
- new unique effect instead (but no idea yet)
- nerf it to +6 bane damage
- maybe make it vampire bane weapon (the description goes in that direction too)
- immunity to level drain then???
- immunity to drink blood from SCSII?

Edited by Lawlight, 02 September 2011 - 07:37 AM.





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