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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 08:00 AM

For those who have followed me since the first versions of SR this will sound strange, but V4 will indeed add new spells. I still believe adding new spells isn't necessarily a good thing, and surely it wasn't a priority of SR, but now that most of vanilla's spells have reached a very good level in terms of refinements and balance (at least imo), I've started to realize that in few cases new spells may actually be "necessary".

Any new spell needs to have a specific purpose, like filling a missing "hole" (e.g. a specialist mage not having any spell from his school at xth level), or improve gameplay/variety (e.g. we neither need nor want 3-4 fire based invocations at xth level, but having instead cold, and electrical based invocations along with all those pre existing fire based ones would seriously improve the overall gameplay imo), and they have to be PnP based spells (you know I accept both 2nd and 3rd edition, but I won't include non-D&D spells or completely invented spells).

Anyway, long story short, I'll start by writing down my current to-do list on this matter to see what you think about it, and then I'll expand it to better describe the spells we end up agreeing on.

If you have any suggestion let me know!


Level 1 Arcane Spells
We don't need any new 1st lvl spells imo, and the only spell I've remotely thought about including here is Ice Dagger.


Level 2 Arcane Spells
I have two must-have for Invokers here, Gedlee's Electric Loop and Snilloc's Snowball Swarm.


Level 3 Arcane Spells
I'd like to add Icelance.


Level 4 Arcane Spells
I'd like to add Mordenkainen's Force Missiles to raise the overall amount of magic damage dealing spells, which is very low right now.

Illusionists will surely welcome the classic Phantasmal Killer insead.

I thought about adding Vitriolic Sphere to Conjurers, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't have much free space at this level.


Level 5 Arcane Spells
Inspired by the use of similar abilities by SCS and aTweak's fiends, and remembering that DavidW once said Transmuters weren't implemented within SCS because their lack of Abjuration spells (PfMW-like spells in particualr) makes them too much vulnerable, I'd really like to add them Etherealness at this level.

I'm thinking about adding Ball Lightning, but unless we slightly alter its PnP/IWD concept it would just be an improved Melf's Minute Meteors spell (5 apr, 2d6 damage to target and opponents within 5 feet).


Level 6 Arcane Spells
I absolutely want Illusionists to have at least one spell to summon illusionary creatures, and I've planned to replace Wyvern Call (wyverns may end up within one of those Monster Summoning spell) with Shades.

What about the classic Otiluke's Freezing Sphere?


Level 7 Arcane Spells
I'd need a Divination spell but I'm unable to find a decent one. Perhaps IWD Executioner's Eyes could fill this spot.


Level 8 Arcane Spells
Abjurers may get Mind Blank.

Once again, I need at least one Divination spell here, and the only one I could find is Prying Eye, which more or less is a Wizard Eye spell which can detect illusions and traps. :undecided: I'd probably prefer to find a way to implement Moment of Prescience over it, but right now I have no idea how I could do that.

Enchanters will get Mass Charm.

I'd like Illusionists to get Solipsism to raise their offensive oriented repertoire.

Necromancers may get a Create Greater Undead spell.

Transmuters may get Mass Polymorph.


Level 9 Arcane Spells
Diviners will get Foresight.

Illusionists will get Weird. :rolleyes: :rotflmao:

Edited by Demivrgvs, 13 April 2012 - 03:42 AM.


#2 Dakk

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 02:15 PM

I'm chock-full of awesomeness with all the great news to the xR series :D Got feedback and suggestions coming, but just a quick note here on Divination level 8, could Mind Blank be used on level 8? Or is it's usability even harder to code than Moment of Prescience?

Again, great news all around Demi!

Illusionists will get Weird.

This cracks me up :) :D

Edited by Dakk, 02 August 2011 - 02:17 PM.


#3 Ardanis

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 02:35 PM

could Mind Blank be used on level 8?

If Spell Immunity is removed - something I once used to be against at some point in the past, - then MB comes as a natural replacement for SI:Ench.

Following the suit, Shadow Shield (7th level) can replace SI:Necro.

And seeing how 8th level is half-empty, what about Polar Ray? There're only fire-based spells after 6th.

PS

I'd probably prefer to find a way to implement Moment of Prescience over it, but right now I have no idea how I could do that.

I might be wrong, but iirc there was a talk in ToBEx forum about new SPL flag allowing to ignore the aura of cleansing. If that ever comes through, the implementation should be simple enough - innate spl with SI-like submenu.

Edited by Ardanis, 02 August 2011 - 02:52 PM.

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#4 polytope

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 03:43 PM

If I find a decent animation for it I'd like to add Icelance.

A good animation can be made by replacing SPSCORIC with an ice-looking BAM and setting projectile type to "Scorcher Ice".

Incidentally, I've found a way to prevent cold damage destroying equipment (for those who don't use ToBEx) - include an .eff (after the damage) for General Ids:Dead to "Drop Weapons" - about 5-10 repeats to ensure all armor and weapons dropped (probably potion bottles should be shattered by freezing anyway).

I thought about adding Vitriolic Sphere to Conjurers, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't have much free space at this level.

It could either fill the slot SPWI423 or replace "Polymorph Other" - which never worked when cast by the AI in vanilla, and is hard for the AI to use correctly even if the spell is fixed: AFAIK turning into a squirrel doesn't set STATE_HARMLESS or anything similar and the creature is still regarded as a threat.

There are currently no other spells which deal "burst" acid damage, making protection from acid useful only twice in the entire game.
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#5 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 06:40 AM

Mind Blank

...just a quick note here on Divination level 8, could Mind Blank be used on level 8?

I wasn't too much of a fan of this spell because it just seems an expensive Chaotic Commands for mages, but it's indeed a classic D&D spell thus I'm ok with adding it.

That being said, Mind Blank isn't a divination spell. :)

Furthermore...

If Spell Immunity is removed - something I once used to be against at some point in the past, - then MB comes as a natural replacement for SI:Ench.

Yeah, I'm actually on the fence on this matter as I really cannot decide anymore now that ToBEx allows SI to work via contingency and triggers. I still consider SI kinda OP, and broken in terms of implementation (a caster under SI:Abj shouldn't be able to use PfMW), but SCS relies over it so much that we can remove it only if our alternative solution is 100% flawless.

Shadow Shield

Following the suit, Shadow Shield (7th level) can replace SI:Necro.

As I once said you, the problem I have with this NWN spell is that its very concept doesn't really convince me. Why an illusion spell should protect you from all necromancy spells? I know that for some reason illusionists have control over the shadow magic (kinda overlapping necromances for a bunch of spells back in AD&D) but SI:Nec belonging to them would stretch the concept a little bit too much imo, no? :D

Polar Ray

And seeing how 8th level is half-empty, what about Polar Ray? There're only fire-based spells after 6th.

I've thought about it, but it would be almost identical to Otiluke's Freezing Sphere.

Most importantly, I actually had a devious plan to add an 8th lvl cold based spell: turning Bigby's Grasping Hand into Bigby's Icy Grasp. I know it's a 4th edition spell (shame on me) but 3E Magic of Faerun actually had an identical spell with different name, Zajimarn's Ice Claw. What do you think?

Moment of Prescience

I'd probably prefer to find a way to implement Moment of Prescience over it, but right now I have no idea how I could do that.

I might be wrong, but iirc there was a talk in ToBEx forum about new SPL flag allowing to ignore the aura of cleansing. If that ever comes through, the implementation should be simple enough - innate spl with SI-like submenu.

That would be cool! Without it the only thing I could do would be an insta-casting spell which grants +20 (or even more) to AC and saves for a very limited amount of time (1 round?), but I doubt it would be a great spell if it prevents spellcasting for that round.

Icelance

If I find a decent animation for it I'd like to add Icelance.

A good animation can be made by replacing SPSCORIC with an ice-looking BAM and setting projectile type to "Scorcher Ice".

Leaving aside that hardcoded issues prevent me from using scorcher's projectile, I just found an animation which prefectly suits it within IWD. :D

Incidentally, I've found a way to prevent cold damage destroying equipment (for those who don't use ToBEx) - include an .eff (after the damage) for General Ids:Dead to "Drop Weapons" - about 5-10 repeats to ensure all armor and weapons dropped (probably potion bottles should be shattered by freezing anyway).

Well, I always suggested to simply remove the gore option to easily remove ALL problems regarding things such a frozen death, disintegration and petrification death, but now we are going to include ToBEx itself, thus I don't think I'll have to find a workaround to this issue anymore.

Vitriolic Sphere

I thought about adding Vitriolic Sphere to Conjurers, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't have much free space at this level.

It could either fill the slot SPWI423 or replace "Polymorph Other" - which never worked when cast by the AI in vanilla, and is hard for the AI to use correctly even if the spell is fixed: AFAIK turning into a squirrel doesn't set STATE_HARMLESS or anything similar and the creature is still regarded as a threat.

Replacing a classic and unique spell such as Polymorph Other is not an option for me, and even replacing Spider Spawn is hardly one, though it may be slightly more acceptable is those spiders are simply moved to a Monster Summoning spell.

There are currently no other spells which deal "burst" acid damage, making protection from acid useful only twice in the entire game.

That's exactly why I want to add this spell. Acid based spells (or threats in general) are pretty much non-existant in this game right now.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 03 August 2011 - 07:12 AM.


#6 Ardanis

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:16 AM

Spell Immunity

Yeah, I'm actually on the fence on this matter as I really cannot decide anymore now that ToBEx allows SI to work via contingency and triggers. I still consider SI kinda OP, and broken in terms of implementation (a castur under SI:Abj shouldn't be able to use PfMW), but SCS relies over it so much that we can remove it only if our alternative solution is 100% flawless.

Personally, I can live with AI spell-triggering 8th level spell. The worst case scenarion, if SCS will make no allowance for SI removal.

Shadow Shield
It protects against negative energy. 206-ing a list of spells should work imo - because Cause Wounds, Vampiric Touch, Finger of Death, ADHW, Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee all fit the bill. And AI doesn't really need SI:Nec for anything else. Only Skull Trap remains, but I think it can be "smuggled" in unnoticed.

Polar Ray

I've thought about it, but it would be almost identical to Otiluke's Freezing Sphere.

With another Otiluke's Sphere already present in game and 6th level being 100% filled, I'd take the Ray.

Also, the ray will be more useful for "ranged touch" spell type, if I manage to convince you and others that it's a good concept :)

Most importantly, I actually had a devious plan to add an 8th lvl cold based spell: turning Bigby's Grasping Hand into Bigby's Icy Grasp. I know it's a 4th edition spell (shame on me) but 3E Magic of Faerun actually had an identical spell with different name, Zajimarn's Ice Claw. What do you think?

Interesting, though I'd probably want to keep a couple of physical damage spells.


Acid based spells (or threats in general) are pretty much non-existant in this game right now.

Add Acid Sheath? Or replace one of Fireshields with it?

Edited by Ardanis, 03 August 2011 - 07:25 AM.

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#7 Shaitan

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:28 AM

Interesting.

I'm confident you'll put quality enough into your new spells so the balance is kept.

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#8 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 11:36 AM

Shadow Shield
I'll think about it a little more while waiting to see if some other player wants to say his opinion on thi s spell.

Polar Ray

I've thought about it, but it would be almost identical to Otiluke's Freezing Sphere.

With another Otiluke's Sphere already present in game and 6th level being 100% filled, I'd take the Ray.

We have two Melf's spells and Two Bigby's spells, not to mention I'd like to add a second Mordenakinen's spell. What's wrong about having more than a single spell with a famus mage name attached to it?

Anyway, the crucial point about not adding Polar Ray is Bigby's Icy Grasp already filling the role of 8th lvl cold based invocation spell spot.

Most importantly, I actually had a devious plan to add an 8th lvl cold based spell: turning Bigby's Grasping Hand into Bigby's Icy Grasp. I know it's a 4th edition spell (shame on me) but 3E Magic of Faerun actually had an identical spell with different name, Zajimarn's Ice Claw. What do you think?

Interesting, though I'd probably want to keep a couple of physical damage spells.

The other Bigby's spell still do. Speaking of which, making grasping hand deal cold damage (and freezing the opponent) is also a great way to finally make the two Bigby's spell different (they are pretty much identical right now). Crushing Fist will keep its physical dmg output, which is a way better dmg type imo (e.g. all undead creatures are immune to cold). Don't you agree?

Mestil's Acid Sheath

Acid based spells (or threats in general) are pretty much non-existant in this game right now.

Add Acid Sheath? Or replace one of Fireshields with it?

Removing a Fireshield spell is not an option as the do use both of them, but I thought about making them use the same spell slot and work a la SI letting the caster select its color "on the fly". Anyway, leaving aside that Acid Sheath is a 5th lvl spell in PnP (it's slightly more damaging, the dmg type is slightly more effective, and the caster also get a corrosive grasp effect), didn't we discarded the much more classic (at least within FR lore) Death Armor because we feared the potential abuse of multiple fireshield-like effects?

4th level spell slots
Now, as it stands now we have up to three new spells for this level (Phantasmal Killer, Mordenkainen's Force Missiles and Vitriolic Sphere) but not a single free spell slot for them. We may have multiple ways to free that slots:
1) making Fireshield spells use only one slot
2) "removing" Dimension Door
3) taking into account that Simbul's Spell Matrix may become an innate spell
4) removing either Farsight or Wizard Eye
5) any suggestion?

1) I guess this is the obvious first choice as long as ToBEx really allows us to do so

2) I know that many players love this spell, but removing LOS requirement is not doable for its scroll, and it's potentially gamebreaking in any case. What about "keeping" it with LOS requirement implementing on of its PnP lower level versions of it (Dimensional Hop/Step)?

3) assuming we want the whole "contingencies/triggers become innates" thing to be optional (I guess we have to right?) this would mean either Mordy Missiles or Vitriolic Sphere will be installed only if such component frees 1 slot.

4) ok, it may sound strange to remove a divination spell, but these two actually do the very same thing with the very same spell level! I do think keeping only one of the two would be more than enough, am I wrong?

#9 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:05 PM

2) "removing" Dimension Door
4) removing either Farsight or Wizard Eye


Out of curiosity, is there any particular reason for removing existing spells while adding new ones?

AFAIK, with TobEx' Scrollable Spellbooks, having more than one screen of selectable spells per level is no longer an issue.
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#10 amanasleep

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:53 PM

What about Spectral Hand? Is this possible?

#11 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:14 PM

2) "removing" Dimension Door
4) removing either Farsight or Wizard Eye


Out of curiosity, is there any particular reason for removing existing spells while adding new ones?

AFAIK, with TobEx' Scrollable Spellbooks, having more than one screen of selectable spells per level is no longer an issue.

I thought Scrollable Spellbook was still giving some issue or wasn't flawless in some way (e.g. you cannot display all spells at lvl up but only in the speelbook screen). Am I wrong?

Furthermore, this is the only spell level where I might have to do that and it's not even a matter of really removing a spell imo because:
- Dimension Door wasn't even there in the first place within BG2, I cannot make it work as it should anyway, and if I could it would be a potentially game breaking spell
- Wizard Eye and Farsight do the very same thing, and I could even just "replace" the former with its higher lvl version Prying Eye later on, thus I wouldn't really "remove" it but simply move it to another spell lvl :D

Spectral Hand

What about Spectral Hand? Is this possible?

Pretty much not doable. :)

Edited by Demivrgvs, 03 August 2011 - 03:51 PM.


#12 polytope

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:27 PM

Leaving aside that hardcoded issues prevent me from using scorcher\'s projectile, I just found an animation which prefectly suits it within IWD.

I checked and "Scorcher Ice" doesn't hit multiple creatures, unlike regular ToB scorcher, but if you've found an animation you prefer I guess it doesn't matter.

It could either fill the slot SPWI423 or replace "Polymorph Other" - which never worked when cast by the AI in vanilla, and is hard for the AI to use correctly even if the spell is fixed: AFAIK turning into a squirrel doesn\'t set STATE_HARMLESS or anything similar and the creature is still regarded as a threat.

Replacing a classic and unique spell such as Polymorph Other is not an option for me, and even replacing Spider Spawn is hardly one, though it may be slightly more acceptable is those spiders are simply moved to a Monster Summoning spell.

My mistake, I meant SPWI422, not 423 - which is currently empty.

4th level spell slots
Now, as it stands now we have up to three new spells for this level (Phantasmal Killer, Mordenkainen's Force Missiles and Vitriolic Sphere) but not a single free spell slot for them. We may have multiple ways to free that slots:
1) making Fireshield spells use only one slot
2) "removing" Dimension Door
3) taking into account that Simbul's Spell Matrix may become an innate spell
4) removing either Farsight or Wizard Eye
5) any suggestion?

1) Whichever spell replaces either fireshield must be a self targetted buff to prevent AI issues (sorry if this sounds completely obvious).
2) As with fireshield, though I guess you could move both of them to SPIN prefixes (to get them out of the mage spell book) and alter their spell.ids entries to prevent AI being confused.
4) Farsight is better than Wizard's eye with ToB installed (the nerfed eye does little, if anything, that scouting with a cloaked character would not); Farsight has no chance to "trigger" revealed enemies before you want to.

Fireshields were still stackable with themselves the last time I checked, also, their backlash damage had a power of zero, ignored MR and went through any protection. In the case of a wizard with 4 of them (2 in prebuffs, 2 more activated through sequencer) it was like getting hit by Wilting every time you attacked him.

I'd give fireshields a positive power level for their backlash but make each grant immunity to backlashes from fireshields of the same color.

Spectral Hand

What about [url="http://\"http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spectral_Hand\""]Spectral Hand[/url]? Is this possible?

Pretty much not doable. :)

It would be via "summoning an invisible creature" which checks what "touch attack" you have equipped and replaces it with a ranged version (or a "ranged hit effect" like called shot, if you want to make some of them work like that). I'm afraid it could only benefit the players without a serious revision of scripts.

Edited by polytope, 03 August 2011 - 07:35 PM.

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#13 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:52 PM

I thought Scrollable Spellbook was still giving some issue or wasn't flawless in some way (e.g. you cannot display all spells at lvl up but only in the speelbook screen). Am I wrong?


You might be better off asking some of the BWP guys about that, I'm just going by what I've seen in the TobEx readme:

-----630 Scrollable Chargen Mage Spell Selection [M, X]
Adds a scroll bar to the mage spell selection panel during character generation


-----650 Scrollable Level Up Mage Spell Selection [M, X]
Adds a scroll bar to the sorcerer spell selection panel during level-up


-----660 Scrollable Mage Spellbook [C, M, X]
(Different implementation to, and clashes with tob_hacks)
Adds up and down buttons to the mage book known spells panel
Scrolls only when the number of spells in the level is > 20


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#14 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 11:21 PM

I checked and "Scorcher Ice" doesn't hit multiple creatures, unlike regular ToB scorcher, but if you've found an animation you prefer I guess it doesn't matter.


4th level spell slots

1) Whichever spell replaces either fireshield must be a self targetted buff to prevent AI issues (sorry if this sounds completely obvious).
2) As with fireshield, though I guess you could move both of them to SPIN prefixes (to get them out of the mage spell book) and alter their spell.ids entries to prevent AI being confused.
4) Farsight is better than Wizard's eye with ToB installed (the nerfed eye does little, if anything, that scouting with a cloaked character would not); Farsight has no chance to "trigger" revealed enemies before you want to.

1) Actually I wouldn't alter neither spwi403 nor spwi418, I'd add a new spl file which allow players to choose between the two. The AI will still use the old spl files.
2) See above, I'd simply hide Dimension Door much like it was in vanilla.
4) Yeah, I'd keep Farsight because it's much more unique (the other is just an invisble creature), and because I could improve the latter into Prying Eye if we really want to preserve it.

Fireshields

Fireshields were still stackable with themselves the last time I checked, also, their backlash damage had a power of zero, ignored MR and went through any protection. In the case of a wizard with 4 of them (2 in prebuffs, 2 more activated through sequencer) it was like getting hit by Wilting every time you attacked him.

As far as I remember multiple fireshields of the same type don't stak, thus the max you can have is the violet 2x fireshield combo which inflicts 2d6 +2/lvl (up to +20) on each hit, which doesn't sound too OP considering you're using two 4th lvl spell slots to achieve it.

Otoh, adding other similar sources such as Death Armor and Acid Sheath may get kinda broken if we don't prevent all of them from stacking, especially because SCS AI won't be able to detect these two new spells and attack the protected character without reserve.

I'd give fireshields a positive power level for their backlash but make each grant immunity to backlashes from fireshields of the same color.

Assignig them a power lvl would make them disintegrate Spell Deflection-like spells and grant another easy cheat to get infinity spells via Spell Trap. I don't see much benefit from such a change, what do you want to achieve? Nerf them?

More than protecting from other fireshields per se we should make sure two fireshielded characters don't get stuck in an endless loop while fighting each other. I guess it should be doable with a short lasting 206, I'll look into it.

Scrollable Mage Spellbook

I thought Scrollable Spellbook was still giving some issue or wasn't flawless in some way (e.g. you cannot display all spells at lvl up but only in the speelbook screen). Am I wrong?

You might be better off asking some of the BWP guys about that, I'm just going by what I've seen in the TobEx readme.

I'll lokk into it, though I still don't think we need it.

#15 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 02:02 AM

Spectral Hand

What about [url="http://\"http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spectral_Hand\""]Spectral Hand[/url]? Is this possible?

Pretty much not doable. :)

It would be via "summoning an invisible creature" which checks what "touch attack" you have equipped and replaces it with a ranged version (or a "ranged hit effect" like called shot, if you want to make some of them work like that). I'm afraid it could only benefit the players without a serious revision of scripts.

To answer the original question, it depends on what is asked the hand to do... as in D&D, the hand is an incorporeal clone of the mage with an attack bonus. "It" can cast spells as a point of origin, but it posses no spells of it's own...
Those are quite hard to do if not impossible...
What comes to the polytope's suggestion, well we cannot give the mage a ranged header to their attacks, as they then suffer the negative modifiers against melee opposition. And it takes countless ranged attacks to actually reflect all the current melee attacks... let alone all the modified games melee attacks.

Scrollable Mage Spellbook

I thought Scrollable Spellbook was still giving some issue or wasn't flawless in some way (e.g. you cannot display all spells at lvl up but only in the speelbook screen). Am I wrong?

You might be better off asking some of the BWP guys about that, I'm just going by what I've seen in the TobEx readme.

I'll look into it, though I still don't think we need it.

But is it a good reason to remove spells ?

Level 8 Arcane Spells
Abjurers may get Mind Blank.
...
Enchanters will get ...
I'd like Illusionists to get ...
Necromancers may get ...
Transmuters may get ...
Level 9 Arcane Spells
Diviners will get ...
Illusionists will get...

What about all the others ? Originally Necromancers didn't get Illusion spells, but do they still get nearly all the others ? As the wording would say a no.
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