264 replies to this topic

[Ardanis]

Energy Drain

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For the target, 4 drained levels are barely vital, because by the time you reach 18th level even generic grunts start boasting two-digit level score. A wizard will sure lose some higher level spells, but you'd have to actually land ED on him before he casts them.




Might as well go for 8 levels (still within 2d4 bounds), then maybe it is finally worth a slot.

Sounds like an instantaneous Spell Worm on steroids to me.

I haven't thought about it... However:
1) That only concerns casters, whom you still need to catch unprotected.
2) PW Kill and Imprisonment have a good chance to destroy the opponent completely, not to weaken them by several levels.
3) SCS mages are generally several levels higher the average.
4) -4 is useless against melee enemies by the time you reach 18th level.

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Interesting idea to make it more appealing to casters. Together with the +4 caster levels Demi wants to add it should be enough.

I remind that + caster level is only going to add +2 on 18th level, and +1 on 20th. That's as far as it could get. Casting from scrolls is possible, but 9th scrolls aren't exactly cheap.

Meteor Swarm
We already have Comet as HLA, no? And changing MS to conjuration will leave invokers with Bigby only on 9th level.

[Demivrgvs]

Mantles

F-man, on 25 April 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

I was thinking that changing mantle spells school to conjuration would make them little more distinct from PfNW and PfMW and also usable to transmuters or whatever specialist is going to have abjuration their opposite school in KR. Mantle spells are mantles like Mage Armor is armor, right? I like idea to make Mantle PfNW+PfMW and it could also keep at least some of its save bonuses from V3 to make it more appealing, maybe make save bonuses increase with level. I also approve making Improved Mantle just like Mantle but with small aura effect (and with Mantle's save bonuses maybe).

Interesting idea. It seems kinda convenient but it may makes sense, though in theory conjurations shouldn't be insta-casting spells. I'll think about it.

Black Blade of Disaster

Kalindor, on 24 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Cast on party members?

OMG, never thought about it. It makes sense, but allowing a Berserker with grandmastery in long swords to wield this +5 disintegrating sword with 2d12 dmg dice (aka a long sword which outshines the vorpal Silver Sword in every possible way) is frightening to say the least...would it be balanced? Mmm

The problem is that BBoD is a very different spell within PnP, more like a conjured Improved Mordy Sword (aka the ultimate summon) but considering we have Mordy I think the current concept is fine.

Should I just make the sword force a save on each hit (perhaps with no penalty instead of the current -5) to avoid disintegration? I made it trigger only 15% of times because it seemed an OP effect, but I guess we have to expect those kind of OP effects from a 9th lvl spell.

After that there's always the possibility of making it bypass PfMW-like spells as per PnP.

P.S BBoD during Time Stop is insane imo, and unfortunately DavidW discovered it and assigned this combo to Irenicus.

Energy Drain

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Drained bonus only lasts for 1 turn and frankly is not very useful. You have to be a single class mage to cast 9th spells, and 18+ level mage hardly cares about extra HP, or thaco, or skills. Only +4 saves is somewhat useful, if the caster is not careful to use protections.

I was thinking to make those bonuses last longer, and I'm not sure I'd consider them trivial. Having +20hp for a pure mage can be great to resist PW spells (PW:Stun and PW:Kill in particular), +4 to attack rolls can make their MMM even more annoying, and +4 to all saves is a huge boon imo (pretty much a +20% chance to resist to all spells and spell-like effects in the game).

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Bonus caster level will only add +2 at 18th level, and +1 at 19th.

You're right, it would only matter for dispelling purposes.

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

For the target, 4 drained levels are barely vital, because by the time you reach 18th level even generic grunts start boasting two-digit level score. A wizard will sure lose some higher level spells, but you'd have to actually land ED on him before he casts them.

Point taken, the flaw here is that this damn ToB makes even city guards high lvl characters. Against targets with 24+ HD this spell has indeed very few usefulness in terms of offensive value.

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Might as well go for 8 levels (still within 2d4 bounds), then maybe it is finally worth a slot.

Well, fixed 8 lvls instead of 2-8 is a maximized PnP ED! My problem with this is that if cast on a creature with 20 or less HD it would be absurdly powerful imo. Without allowing a save you'd turn a 20th lvl archmage into an average 12th lvl mage, leaving him/her with just a single 6th lvl spell! Against warriors it's probably fine for a single target 9th lvl spell, but against spellcasters it's insane imo. Am I wrong?

Kalindor, on 24 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Perhaps make it use drained energy to restore spent spells?

Mmm, doesn't sound like something a Necromantic spell would do, does it?

Gate

Kalindor, on 24 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Alignment-specific creatures would be awesome if possible. Maybe merge with Planetar for good casters and make the Planetar spell into something else?

I do thought about it some time ago, but the celestial equivalent of a Pit Fiend would be a Solar, not a Planetar, and we also have Fallen Planetars. Not to mention the concept of this spell is that it let's you summon creatures so powerful that the caster cannot control them, and a "pact" has to be made for temporary alliance.

Making Gate summon planetars (good or evil) and perhaps elemental princes for neutral aligned casters, could have been good if they did it in the first place, but right now it would mess things up imo. Merging an HLA insto this spell can be problematic because SR doesn't alter HLAs tables (and it cannot do it for various reasons imo) and we'd be making existing HLAs redundant (the prosed solution of just making them innate is instead compatible even with HLA mods such as Refinement).

Imprisonment

Kalindor, on 24 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Imprisonment is absurdly broken. However, adding a save makes it short-range PW:Kill (if you change that as suggested also) that bypasses MR. Different enough to be its own spell?

Actually within PnP it doesn't even bypass magic resistance, it only has an incredibly high save penalty (e.g. 4 points higher than 9th lvl spells DC within 3E). Against player's party this spell is broken but can still be managed (especially if we add Dimensional Anchor), but its absurd OP-ness comes out when you think about using it against incredibly powerful beings. Yeah, let's eternally imprison an ancient red dragon or the most powerful warrior of the realms without them having a single chance to resist! This is the most broken spell ever imo, much worse than Time Stop itself, and the only reason this spell is not used within BG despite its OP-ness is that you don't get xp/loot, and that many boss characters have convenient immunities.

Meteor Swarm

Ardanis, on 26 April 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

We already have Comet as HLA, no? And changing MS to conjuration will leave invokers with Bigby only on 9th level.

Indeed, I have no intention of making it a Conjuration spell. Considering the current animation and concept, if we really think it deserves a buff we could make it party friendly (I guess SCS would then start to love using it) but comparing it to WotB I actually think the "not friendly" disadvantage is needed, because else I would prefer MS in pratically every circumstance. Against opponents without fire resistance MS pretty much is a mass insta kill spell (100 dmg on average!) unlike WotB, which currently does nothing on a successful save, MS still does heavy dmg.

Power Word Kill

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

To compete with party-friendly WotB, I think it has to use the hardest save penalty possible, -6.

Well, the cap is -4 right now. WotB does seem more appealing, but PW:Kill still have some nasty advantages like having instantaneous casting time (great to counter refreshing spell protections, or to cast it in the middle of a fight where taking a full round to cast a spell is hard) and no save on targets with less than 60hp (again great to kill off a powerful but injured tank with very good saves before he can use healing potions).

Spell Trap

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Removing animation is interesting, and will definitely warrant a use of Arcane Sight (if we add it). What displeases me a bit is that all spell protections are visible.

Yeah, for some spells in particular it doesn't make sense at all. Why the hell would you make clear to your opponent that his/her spells will be reflected back or absorbed to regains yours?!? Otoh it's probably fine concpetually for protections such as GoI, and perhaps even Spell Deflection.

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Absorbing AoE... you mean casting Incendiary Cloud and walking in it, because other 8th and 9th AoE spells are all friendly. Well, be ashamed anyone who abuses it. ... 1d6+4 is simply not enough for that purpose. And if you're worried about free spell refreshing, the only side effect is that party needs to rest less often! And I hate resting before completing a dungeon.

My problem is that allowing ST to absorb your own (or party) Meteor Swarms multiple times, really is a broken loop imo. If you have two party mages under ST casting two Meteor Swarms it gets even more ridiculous, as each caster would get back two 9th lvl spells for every one 9th lvl spell they cast! Don't tell me this is good because it let's you rest less!

If we don't limit ST to 1d6+4 spell lvls as per PnP then we should at least make it not refresh 9th lvl spells.

Spell Strike

Ardanis, on 23 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

I gave it another thought, and decided that removing specific protections isn't bad after all.

Time Stop

Kalindor, on 24 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

IMO, this spell is only overpowered when combined with Improved Alacrity and/or massive increased casting speed. I agree with removing auto-hit if that is a possibility.

Yeah, as I said TS alone isn't broken but can lead to broken exploits. For example combining TS with vanilla's Vecna and IA makes it utterly insane, though under IR+SR setup this issue is slightly more under control as you should be limited to cast mid-low lvl spells with 0 casting time. The other possibly broken exploits all involve the use of physical attacks during TS, such as using Harm, Mind Flayer's INT drain, and so on.

One thing imo that could greatly balance TS imo would be making Improved Alacrity allow to cast a limited number of spells per round, but to do that I'd need A64 to fix the opcode that is supposed to do that.

Removing physical attacks during TS (as per 3E) is easily doable, but as I said I cannot do that because the AI expects them to work (SCS in particular - vanilla's AI generally used TS to simply cast multiple Symbol spells).

Wail of the Banshee

Lawlight, on 25 April 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Deafness would fit pretty well as a secondary effect, but is it enough to legitimate a lesser penalty? Another thing I can think of is "sonic" damage on a succeeded save. Or even both.

Sonic damage don't fit the Necromantic school imo. It would make this spell look more like an Evoker's Shout spell.

Lawlight, on 25 April 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Anyways, without a proper secondary effect it should keep its -6 save penalty.

Well, even with -4 penalty I doubt it would become too weak, but I suggested to add a secondary penalty exactly because it wouldn't force the spell to rely on an incredibly difficult save.

[Ardanis]

Black Blade of Disaster
Fine with disintegrate on each hit.

Energy Drain

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Without allowing a save you'd turn a 20th lvl archmage into an average 12th lvl mage, leaving him/her with just a single 6th lvl spell! Against warriors it's probably fine for a single target 9th lvl spell, but against spellcasters it's insane imo. Am I wrong?

My argument is as before - you need to actually land it on. Through invisibility, spell deflection, spell shield, and perhaps even shadow shield aka SI Necro. While you whack away with Spellstrikes, the enemy is happy to unleash his highest spells at you. This is also not going to affect liches, bosses, and probably dragons (?).
If you think it is too much, I would instead prefer shoter range and\or longer casting time over a weaker effect.

PW Kill

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Well, the cap is -4 right now. WotB does seem more appealing, but PW:Kill still have some nasty advantages like having instantaneous casting time (great to counter refreshing spell protections, or to cast it in the middle of a fight where taking a full round to cast a spell is hard) and no save on targets with less than 60hp (again great to kill off a powerful but injured tank with very good saves before he can use healing potions).

This is still a single target spell, while WotB is friendly and crowd. Assuming WotB's save goes to -2 penalty, this will be only 10% better chance!

Spell Trap
Well. If I wanted to protect myself, I'd take 7th spell (12 levels deflected?) over 1d6+4, and if to restore spells - cast Wish. So what's the point to use Spell Trap then?

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My problem is that allowing ST to absorb your own (or party) Meteor Swarms multiple times, really is a broken loop imo. If you have two party mages under ST casting two Meteor Swarms it gets even more ridiculous, as each caster would get back two 9th lvl spells for every one 9th lvl spell they cast! Don't tell me this is good because it let's you rest less!

I forgot about MS, my bad. Like I've said, be ashamed if you do it.
And remember that ProFire/Elements grants complete immunity to both MS and Incendiary Cloud.

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If we don't limit ST to 1d6+4 spell lvls as per PnP then we should at least make it not refresh 9th lvl spells.

I think it really should stop 9th spells.

Edited by Ardanis, 26 April 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

Energy Drain

Ardanis, on 26 April 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

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Without allowing a save you'd turn a 20th lvl archmage into an average 12th lvl mage, leaving him/her with just a single 6th lvl spell! Against warriors it's probably fine for a single target 9th lvl spell, but against spellcasters it's insane imo. Am I wrong?

My argument is as before - you need to actually land it on. Through invisibility, spell deflection, spell shield, and perhaps even shadow shield aka SI Necro. While you whack away with Spellstrikes, the enemy is happy to unleash his highest spells at you. This is also not going to affect liches, bosses, and probably dragons (?).
If you think it is too much, I would instead prefer shoter range and\or longer casting time over a weaker effect.

Is it so difficult to land a single target spell? Tearing down both spell and combat protections is hard (and the caster may still defend himself from physical attacks with other means such as illusionary protections), but tearing down spell protections alone shouldn't be so hard (a couple of spell removals depending if Spell Shield is up). Anyway, assuming unprotected mages deserve to die with a single target 9th lvl spell you have a point (though the insta-kill role against those mages belongs to PW:Kill imo).

Btw, does lvl drain remove learned HLAs while lowering the target's lvl? I think it doesn't but I don't recall it anymore.

PW Kill

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Well, the cap is -4 right now. WotB does seem more appealing, but PW:Kill still have some nasty advantages like having instantaneous casting time (great to counter refreshing spell protections, or to cast it in the middle of a fight where taking a full round to cast a spell is hard) and no save on targets with less than 60hp (again great to kill off a powerful but injured tank with very good saves before he can use healing potions).

This is still a single target spell, while WotB is friendly and crowd. Assuming WotB's save goes to -2 penalty, this will be only 10% better chance!

I know, but as I said it's not the save penalty difference which makes PW appealing, but rather its casting time and 'no save' chance. At least that's how I see it, but I admit I'm not 100% sure PW:Kill can match WotB, despite our PW:Kill being way more powerful than PnP one.

Btw, this could be another good reason to lower WotB save penalty. PnP has it with no penalty at all, but it seemed kinda weak back then in vanilla, wasn't it? Otoh if we add a meaningfull secondary effect (50% spell failure on anyone in the area with no save seemed good to me) even with no penalty against the death effect, and thus a low chance to trigger against bosses, WotB could still be a great spell to kill hordes of mid lvl beings and disabling multiple high lvl mages.

Spell Trap

Ardanis, on 26 April 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

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My problem is that allowing ST to absorb your own (or party) Meteor Swarms multiple times, really is a broken loop imo. If you have two party mages under ST casting two Meteor Swarms it gets even more ridiculous, as each caster would get back two 9th lvl spells for every one 9th lvl spell they cast! Don't tell me this is good because it let's you rest less!

I forgot about MS, my bad. Like I've said, be ashamed if you do it.

Well, the "be ashamed" and "we are not the police" thing works for those exploits a player actively look for, but in this case this is something even a fair player could end up doing without even thinking about it.

Ardanis, on 26 April 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

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If we don't limit ST to 1d6+4 spell lvls as per PnP then we should at least make it not refresh 9th lvl spells.

I think it really should stop 9th spells.

Yeah, I was suggesting it should not refresh 9th lvl spell, but I have nothing against it still stopping 9th lvl spells. I'm not sure if it's doable, I have to check the opcode again.

[Lawlight]

Imprisonment

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[..]and the only reason this spell is not used within BG despite its OP-ness is that you don't get xp/loot, and that many boss characters have convenient immunities.

And that is all balance it needs. If the player decides to waste a 9th level spell slot on a not so important/mighty enemy too kill it later, why not?

Black Blade of Disaster

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The problem is that BBoD is a very different spell within PnP, more like a conjured Improved Mordy Sword (aka the ultimate summon) but considering we have Mordy I think the current concept is fine.

Why not allow both like Ras? That'd be quite cool.

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Should I just make the sword force a save on each hit (perhaps with no penalty instead of the current -5) to avoid disintegration? I made it trigger only 15% of times because it seemed an OP effect, but I guess we have to expect those kind of OP effects from a 9th lvl spell.

I'm fine with that.

Wail of the Banshee

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Sonic damage don't fit the Necromantic school imo. It would make this spell look more like an Evoker's Shout spell.

It's 3E Descriptor states it as sonic/death and sonic damage is usually inflicted by sound waves. Ergo: I don't think its that absurd. But I think a secondary damage effect isn't that appealing anyway, isn't it?

Spell Trap

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Well. If I wanted to protect myself, I'd take 7th spell (12 levels deflected?) over 1d6+4, and if to restore spells - cast Wish. So what's the point to use Spell Trap then?

Ardanis has a good point here.

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My problem is that allowing ST to absorb your own (or party) Meteor Swarms multiple times, really is a broken loop imo. If you have two party mages under ST casting two Meteor Swarms it gets even more ridiculous, as each caster would get back two 9th lvl spells for every one 9th lvl spell they cast! Don't tell me this is good because it let's you rest less!

It's good because it let's you rest less! *joking* Sorry I couldn't resist.

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If we don't limit ST to 1d6+4 spell lvls as per PnP then we should at least make it not refresh 9th lvl spells.

If you take Wondrous Recall as a reference, it should be alright that it can not refresh 9th lvl spells.

Carrion Summons
My sister forces me to ask that: could they find a new home in one of the Monster Summoning spells? She finds them (no joke) cute...

Edited by Lawlight, 26 April 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[Montcroix]

Black Blade of Disaster

Lawlight, on 26 April 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

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The problem is that BBoD is a very different spell within PnP, more like a conjured Improved Mordy Sword (aka the ultimate summon) but considering we have Mordy I think the current concept is fine.

Why not allow both like Ras? That'd be quite cool.

That would be very cool indeed... Mordy is almost a purely defensive spell: THAC0 2 and 5d4 damage once a round is rather underwhelming in TOB. But make THAC0 and damage slightly better, and add disintegrate... now we're speaking! though you'd better make the summoned sword immune to haste effects

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Should I just make the sword force a save on each hit (perhaps with no penalty instead of the current -5) to avoid disintegration? I made it trigger only 15% of times because it seemed an OP effect, but I guess we have to expect those kind of OP effects from a 9th lvl spell.

If so, would you still keep the 5d6 magical damage on a successful save ? Then it would be a very powerful spell indeed for F/M...

[Kalindor]

Energy Drain
Restoring spell levels may not immediately qualify as necromantic. However, since you are sucking out people's life force to do it, I would contend that you could be using that energy to grow tulips and it would still be quite heinous.

Spell Trap
I really think this should at least shield against AoE even if it doesn't absorb spell energy from them. It is the 9th-level spell protection after all.

Imprisonment
I don't know if that is "all the balance it needs" as lawlight contends. I suggest a longer casting time (2 rounds?) or a saving throw (even w/ a huge penalty).

Black Blade of Disaster
The fact that it would be more powerful than the silver sword if we allow party member targeting is actually a bonus. If it wasn't an improvement over their weapons, why cast it at all? Alternately, you could make it add on-hit properties to any weapon instead of replacing their current weapon with a magical one. This would ensure that it is always useful and not out-moded by whatever equipment the party possesses.

Edited by Kalindor, 26 April 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[JosephJohnson]

I like the idea that the BBoD may be cast on a party member,

Imprisonment needs a save, even if it's huge, a save at least gives you a chance as opposed to automatic bye bye for whoever it is cast on.

[Lawlight]

Black Blade of Disaster

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[...]you could make it add on-hit properties to any weapon instead of replacing their current weapon with a magical one. This would ensure that it is always useful and not out-moded by whatever equipment the party possesses.

That'd be a very different concept from PnP's BBoD & Vanilla's one, dunno whether I like that or not (it'd be an Alteration spell then too). Well, the first goal that really should be achieved is to make this spell actually an appealing choise for every kind of mage (single, multi or dual). Allowing the caster to wield it (current concept) or letting it fight for it's own (PnP concept) would ensure that every kind of mage wants to use that spell. A single class mage would obviously use it as the ultimate summon spell, where the more fighting orientated mage would use it as the best weapon he can get his/her hands on.

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Cast on party members?

While a really good idea, I have mixed feelings here. Someone should use all those cool weapons offered by IR.

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Mordy

I see it coming, we end up calling BBoD Blacky then.

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If so, would you still keep the 5d6 magical damage on a successful save ? Then it would be a very powerful spell indeed for F/M...

Damn I totally forgot about that. With that in mind and according this feature would work with BBoD too, I'm clearly againt changing it to save on each hit instead of a flat 15% chance on hit.

Imprisonment

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I don't know if that is "all the balance it needs" as lawlight contends. I suggest a longer casting time (2 rounds?) or a saving throw (even w/ a huge penalty).

Casting time of 1 round is the absolute max imo. The one thing I really fear if Imprisonment allows a save (even with a huge penalty) is that I would always favor the weaker PW Kill over it, because it's faster to cast and does the same job immediately (with the planned changes), where you need to cast Freedom to make Imprisonment competitive (get XP and loot back). Demi may also end up adding Dimensional Anchor to protect against it (at least for the arcane users - isn't there an Item too now?). But the other classes would most likely be effected by maze anyway, because of mid int...

Edited by Lawlight, 26 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Demivrgvs]

Wow, 9th lvl spells seem to attract much more attention than all other spells lvl together.

Black Blade of Disaster
Now, on one hand I like the idea of turning this spell into the ultimate summon spell (it's a 9th lvl conjuration after all), on the other hand I wouldn't like it to steal the uniqueness of Mordy, and steal the role of other end game summoning spells such as Gate and an eventual Monster Summoning IX (not mentioning Summon Planetar only because it may not compete for 9th lvl spell slots anymore). How could any summon compete with an almost invulnerable one which disintegrates targets on hit?

If you ask me, Gate should fill the role of the ultimate summon spell, whereas BBoD should fill the ultimate create/conjure object role. Don't you agree?

Furthermore, in PnP you have to maintain concentration on BBoD (if you do anything else the blade vanishes), thus making it wielded is pretty much the same thing, if not better, because you can cast a spell without losing the blade, and use the latter for attacking between one spell and the other (with the same THAC0 of a fighter). Long story short, even in PnP BBoD isn't a real summon.

If we agree on the above, then it's just a matter of making such concpet worth its 9th lvl spell slot, and we have plenty of ways imo, like making it bypass PfMW-like spells, or making its on hit effects more "disastrous". Allowing other party members to wield it (making BBoD a sort of Improved Enchanted Weapon spell) would probably be the most powerful boost but I actually fear it could be too much (an Assassin backstabbing with a 2d12+5 disintegrating weapon?).

Energy Drain

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Restoring spell levels may not immediately qualify as necromantic. However, since you are sucking out people's life force to do it, I would contend that you could be using that energy to grow tulips and it would still be quite heinous.

But mages would have to memorize them and rest to cast additional spells granted by new lvls. Following your logic a 14th lvl wizard casting ED via scroll should be able to then cast 9th lvl spells.

@Ardanis, on second thought, raising the amount of drained lvls from 4 to 6 (perhaps even your suggested 8) isn't that bad at all. It still wouldn't kill the only target of the spell, something most 9th lvl offensive spells actually do (PW:Kill, WotB, Weird and to a lesser extent even Meteor Swarm) and could still be blocked by Negative Plane Protection or countered with a Restoration spell (even with a potion thanks to IR). Not to mention that even with 8 drained lvls it would still be incredibly more balanced than Imprisonment. Long story short, this could be the 9th lvl spell choice when you don't want to risk target's uber good saves...to save him.

Imprisonment
Just to clarify why in PnP terms this spell is still absurdly powerful even if it allows a save, its two most fearing features are its duration (eternity!) and its very unique type of effect which makes very difficult to prevent or counter it, and is pretty much NEVER found as innate resistance amongst opponents (unlike the almost common immunities to death or mind-affecting effects). Imo this is one of those spells that ported in a PC game like BG simply doesn't work well. In a PnP game everything would be handled by the DM (e.g. you cast in Firkragg? One of his lackeys will eventually free him) but without a DM and a dynamic flow of the story it leads to many issues.

When used by the AI against players this spell isn't fair but manageable (especially if we add Dimensional Anchor), but if used by players against the AI this spell is so clearly broken that without completely random immunities (e.g. most bosses are immune to it, but they should not) it would end pretty much any tough fight, and brake tons of quests.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 27 April 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[Lawlight]

Black Blade of Disaster

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Now, on one hand I like the idea of turning this spell into the ultimate summon spell (it's a 9th lvl conjuration after all), on the other hand I wouldn't like it to steal the uniqueness of Mordy, and steal the role of other end game summoning spells such as Gate and an eventual Monster Summoning IX (not mentioning Summon Planetar only because it may not compete for 9th lvl spell slots anymore). How could any summon compete with an almost invulnerable one which disintegrates targets on hit?

If you ask me, Gate should fill the role of the ultimate summon spell, whereas BBoD should fill the ultimate create/conjure object role. Don't you agree?

You've got probably a point here. That's the good thing about a living discussion...

Imprisonment

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its two most fearing features are its duration (eternity!)

I'd call it a kill without reward. And it isn't real eternity....

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[...]and its very unique type of effect which makes very difficult to prevent or counter it, and is pretty much NEVER found as innate resistance amongst opponents (unlike the almost common immunities to death or mind-affecting effects)

That's the more convincing argument of the two.

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Imo this is one of those spells that ported in a PC game like BG simply doesn't work well. In a PnP game everything would be handled by the DM (e.g. you cast in Firkragg? One of his lackeys will eventually free him) but without a DM and a dynamic flow of the story it leads to many issues.

Well, that's more a roleplay orientated problem. To stay at your example, who would seriously use this spell against Firkragg (no loot, no exp, an unfullfilled quest)? I understand your thoughts here, but I think it's only a problem in theory. Actual gameplay fixes it itself.

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[...]but if used by players against the AI this spell is so clearly broken that without completely random immunities (e.g. most bosses are immune to it, but they should not) it would end pretty much any tough fight, and brake tons of quests.

The immunity of bosses against it is there to make sure it does not break the game. The other cases where it could break the game are prevented by the players brainpower. Allowing a save against it would not help on this issue, because it could still break quests.

While your planned changes to Power Word Kill are well needed (it's really only a super fast single target version of Symbol of Death without granting a save) to make it compete with other 9th lvl spells and even with Finger of Death on targets above 60 HP, I fear that a nerfed Imprisonment can not stand against it then.

Energy Drain
You two have convinced me too.

[Kalindor]

Demivrgvs, on 27 April 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Energy Drain

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Restoring spell levels may not immediately qualify as necromantic. However, since you are sucking out people's life force to do it, I would contend that you could be using that energy to grow tulips and it would still be quite heinous.

But mages would have to memorize them and rest to cast additional spells granted by new lvls. Following your logic a 14th lvl wizard casting ED via scroll should be able to then cast 9th lvl spells.

Sorry, I meant restoring spells ala Wondrous Recall.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Just a heads up, in case this might be useful.

If you like it, feel free to borrow aTweaks' approach for allowing the player to dismiss summoned creatures. The technical details can be found here.

[Ardanis]

aVENGER said:

If you like it, feel free to borrow aTweaks' approach for allowing the player to dismiss summoned creatures. The technical details can be found here.

Believe it if you will, but I had almost the same in mind

Spell Trap

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Yeah, I was suggesting it should not refresh 9th lvl spell, but I have nothing against it still stopping 9th lvl spells. I'm not sure if it's doable, I have to check the opcode again.

I think it will have to be two separate opcodes then, and therefore doubled effect.

Energy Drain
Alternative approach is to consider this spell not as destructive, but as a restorative one, like Greater Restoration. If it can heal me 100% and purge any disease, that is a good reason to keep it around.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Ardanis, on 30 April 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

aVENGER said:

If you like it, feel free to borrow aTweaks' approach for allowing the player to dismiss summoned creatures. The technical details can be found here.

Believe it if you will, but I had almost the same in mind

I believe you.

Dismissing summons has been a standard feature in NWN/NWN2 since waaay back, and I'm actually a bit surprised that it wasn't modded into BG2 much earlier. In ToEE, you could even dismiss some area-effect spells like Web and Entangle, but I'm not sure how well that would translate into BG2.