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SR V4 (planned changes)


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#46 Demivrgvs

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:24 AM

I had nothing to do at work this morning thus I've used the spare time to continue a discussion I left hanging for really too much. Let's procede with 3rd lvl arcane spells!

Clairvoyance
I think V3 version is a really nice solution to create a unique and effective Divination spell, isn't it?

Detect Illusion
I have mixed feelings about this. At least the planned changes to Detect Invisibility will finally make this spell an alternative with really different properties, but I always thought this spell should actually be Dispel Illusions (that's what it does), which in PnP is an Illusion spell. If either SR or KR will ever offer an option to make opposite schools more rationale, making Illusion the opposite of Divination (and not the random Conjuration!) the change would be even more crucial. As always, feedback is welcome.

Dire Charm
I'd love to make all charm spells as they should, but it all depends on ToBEx I guess.

Dispel & Remove Magic
Back then there was a discussion about adding a cap (or at least a slower progression after 20th caster lvl) to these spells to prevent them being "the ultimate antimagic spell despite cheapness" for very high lvl characters...but in the end I guess we decided to do nothing, haven't we?

Fireball
Would you like its AoE to match PnP's 20 feet radius instead of vanilla's 30 feet? It may seem a nerf, but it doesn't necessarily is so for experienced players imo. A slightly smaller AoE allows a more controlled use of it, letting casters use it more often even close to the battle while more easily avoiding to hurt allies.

Flame Arrow
Now, this spell is a pain to balance. Both its vanilla and V3 version suffer of an unbalanced power lvl progression, which makes this spell a really poor choice early on, and a slightly OP 3rd lvl spell later on. After discussing it with Ardanis I'd suggest to make it grant more arrows more quickly (e.g. 1 arrow every 2-3 lvls), while we can balance its early dmg output by making the save negate all damage (you still have to make a separate save for each arrow!) and its later potential by capping it at a lower lvl (e.g. 12th caster lvl).

Ghost Armor
V3 made this spell more appealing imo, but I still feel something could be done to make it shine a little more, I just don't know what.

Halt Undead
I guess there's nothing to discuss here.

Haste & Slow
Custom secondary types will finally allow me to make them correctly cancel each other as they should. I'd love to make Haste grant "only" +50% movement rate, but I'm not sure I can. One thing I do want to do is making Slow actually work on non-warriors too, by making it halve the attack rate of creatures with apr 1 by 1/2. I'd dare to say this is a fix rather than a tweak!

Hold Person
I guess there's nothing to discuss here.

Invisibility Sphere
I'm unable to make it work as per PnP, but I think a small tweak can at least make it serve a purpose. I suggest to reduce its casting time to 1, but heavily nerf the duration down to 10 rounds. This way the spell won't be a cheap Mass Invisibility, but either a very fast "escape" option or a powerful choice for multiple mage-thief backstab combos.

Lightning Bolt
Unfortunately I still haven't found a solution which really satisfies me. Let's hope BGEE will make projectiles more "moddable". :(

Melf's Minute Meteors
I guess they are fine as they are. The only suggestion could be to make them deal 100% fire damage instead of missile+fire, but either solutions are fine imo (and both have pros and cons).

Minor Spell Deflection
The whole Spell Deflection/Turning system will be heavily changed as an optional component to work in a more consistent and effective way.

Monster Summoning I
We have discussed (and we will discuss) this more in depth in a separate topic. Let's just say I'd love conjurers to have a MS spell (or at least somthing similar) for each spell lvl (even 1st and 2nd lvl).

Non-Detection
As discussed here, I'll make it work much more similarly to PnP. When targeted by Detect Illusion, Oracle, or True Seeing the protected creature will be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, a failed save means DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

Protection from Missiles
This spell is considered OP by some players, but I don't see many alternative solutions (other than the current one, which more or less is as per Forgotten Realms PnP) to make it appealing. Btw, IR V3 makes Dispelling Arrow work against SR V3's PfM.

Skull Trap
I'd love to make it 100% as per PnP, but I can't because the AI wouldn't handle it well. I'm starting to think DavidW made a more balanced choice when we decided to nerf its dmg output (he used vanilla's 1d6/lvl but capped it at 12th caster lvl, I used PnP 1d4/lvl capped at 20th caster lvl). What do you think?

I'd also apply a relatively small conceptual tweak, making its damage count as necromantic negativy energy as per PnP. That means it won't harm undead creatures anymore (opening new tactics for necromancers) and we may also think about making Negative Plane Protection work against it.

Spell Thrust
I think this spell removal may actually keep its small AoE to keep it appealing. What do you think?

Vampiric Touch
This spell probably suffers the same (or similar) problem of Flame Arrow and Skull Trap, should we alter its dmg/drain progression?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 20 March 2012 - 04:29 AM.


#47 Ardanis

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:25 AM

Skull Trap
Set the casting time to 1 round. It's a "trap", so using it in combat should be more tricky. It being a trap also compensates for lower damage than Fireball.

Fireball
I'm for keeping 30' radius. ST does more damage and can be set in advance, but FB is faster and covers larger area.

Spell Thrust
You may be right. However, is there a point?
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#48 Demivrgvs

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:34 AM

Sigh, I was hoping for more feedback before moving to 4th lvl spells. :( Anyway...

Skull Trap

Set the casting time to 1 round. It's a "trap", so using it in combat should be more tricky.

I do think it would be very appropriate, almost a must. With a higher casting time and slightly smaller AoE compared to Fireball, I would finally not be bothered by Skull Trap having the higher damage output and better damage type (though a 3x ST sequencer would ignore the casting time tweak and still be clearly superior to a 3x FB).

It being a trap also compensates for lower damage than Fireball.

Early on, because later on it's actually more damaging. :) Anyway, my only doubt is the dmg output progression, I wanted to know if players prefer the current SR's solution or SCS one.


Fireball

I'm for keeping 30' radius. ST does more damage and can be set in advance, but FB is faster and covers larger area.

Fine with me.

Spell Thrust

You may be right. However, is there a point?

Each spell removal (lesser ones in particualr) need something to make it somewhat special, different from the others. For example Secret Word now belongs to a different school (Enchantment), and has the clear advantage of having an instantaneous casting time (as all PW spells). I think this spell could remain the only one able to bypass Improved Invisibility without the need of Detect Invisibility, TS or similar spells.


4th lvl Arcane Spells


Break Enchantment
I really like what we did to the old Remove Curse. If I can I'll make it work against charms too.

Confusion
Many players asked to reduce the duration and I'm probably fine with it. My biggest concern though is finding a way to make Confusion and Chaos more different.

Contagion
I think I never used this spell in my life, not even after SR's buff. What do you think of it? Is there something I should do?

Dimension Door
I was thinking to move it to a lower lvl spell slot. With or without "line of sight" limitation it's simply not worth a 4th lvl spell slot imo, am I wrong? Then there's the neverending doubt above the just mentioned LOS and its potential game breaking behaviour.

Emotion: Despair
A very nice debuff against melee oriented parties, it probably doesn't need any change unless you want me to make it identical to PnP (aka a Mass Doom spell).

Enchanted Weapon
I'm changing its school from Enchantment to Conjuration as the concept and description suggest ("This spell conjures forth a +3 enchanted weapon..."). If you prefer I can rename it Magical Weapon, but it's really not a big deal imo.

Farsight & Wizard Eye
Really too much similar. I would at least make the latter an actual conjuration/summoned creature.

Fire Shields
They are fine, but we're thinking of making them work "a la Spell Immunity", sharing the same spell slot and allowing the choice between the two "on the fly".

Greater Malison
What about making it count as a not dispellable curse? It does fit the concept imo, and this buff may please those who didn't liked me making this spell as per PnP (aka halving the monstrous -4 penalty to saves). I'd obviously make Break Enchantment work against it.

Ice Storm
I think it's fine, but I'd like to know players opinion. Does many of you use this spell? How does it perform?

Improved Invisibility
It's fine as it is, and the tweaks to Detect Invisibility and TS will actually make it better.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability
It's obviously fine as it is.

Monster Summoning II & Spider Spawn
I'll discuss all summons in a separate topic.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now?

Polymorph Other
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now? This spell is really a pain to balance and I need your feedback.

Polymorph Self
The flaming halberd wielding Flind form will be replaced by a much better Fire Salamander form. I would add a Troll form, but it may not necessarily replace the Ogre form as the latter offer an option with a +2 blunt weapon (aka an anti-golem form).

Secret Word
I simply love what I did to this spell in V3. :D

Simbul's Spell Matrix
As discussed elsewhere. We're seriously thinking to make all sequencer and contingencies innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. It would make SCS fights more fair (SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it would eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from most players (though I never did it).

Spirit Armor
Is it fine as it is?

Stoneskin
It's obviously fine as it is.

Teleport Field
If I'm not wrong most of you think this spell should not allow a save as per vanilla, am I correct?

As a side note I will probably add a Dimensional Anchor spell.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 21 March 2012 - 02:20 AM.


#49 Shaitan

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:12 AM

Clairvoyance
I think V3 version is a really nice solution to create a unique and effective Divination spell, isn't it?

Yeah, I like it.

Detect Illusion
I have mixed feelings about this. At least the planned changes to Detect Invisibility will finally make this spell an alternative with really different properties, but I always thought this spell should actually be Dispel Illusions (that's what it does), which in PnP is an Illusion spell. If either SR or KR will ever offer an option to make opposite schools more rationale, making Illusion the opposite of Divination (and not the random Conjuration!) the change would be even more crucial. As always, feedback is welcome.

I do not use it as much anymore, but I agree with your statement about renaming/change it to Dispell Illusions.

Dire Charm
I'd love to make all charm spells as they should, but it all depends on ToBEx I guess.

Would be nice, what do you need?


Dispel & Remove Magic

Back then there was a discussion about adding a cap (or at least a slower progression after 20th caster lvl) to these spells to prevent them being "the ultimate antimagic spell despite cheapness" for very high lvl characters...but in the end I guess we decided to do nothing, haven't we?

What about adding the same type of change as DavidW do to the paladines dispel magic? But I think the concensus was to do nothing.

Fireball
Would you like its AoE to match PnP's 20 feet radius instead of vanilla's 30 feet? It may seem a nerf, but it doesn't necessarily is so for experienced players imo. A slightly smaller AoE allows a more controlled use of it, letting casters use it more often even close to the battle while more easily avoiding to hurt allies.

I'd like the nerf (PnP).

Flame Arrow
Now, this spell is a pain to balance. Both its vanilla and V3 version suffer of an unbalanced power lvl progression, which makes this spell a really poor choice early on, and a slightly OP 3rd lvl spell later on. After discussing it with Ardanis I'd suggest to make it grant more arrows more quickly (e.g. 1 arrow every 2-3 lvls), while we can balance its early dmg output by making the save negate all damage (you still have to make a separate save for each arrow!) and its later potential by capping it at a lower lvl (e.g. 12th caster lvl).

Yes for capping it and actually I also like it in BG1.

Ghost Armor
V3 made this spell more appealing imo, but I still feel something could be done to make it shine a little more, I just don't know what.

I feel satisfied with GA as it is now.

Halt Undead
I guess there's nothing to discuss here.

Agree

Haste & Slow
Custom secondary types will finally allow me to make them correctly cancel each other as they should. I'd love to make Haste grant "only" +50% movement rate, but I'm not sure I can. One thing I do want to do is making Slow actually work on non-warriors too, by making it halve the attack rate of creatures with apr 1 by 1/2. I'd dare to say this is a fix rather than a tweak!

I agree with everything.

Invisibility Sphere
I'm unable to make it work as per PnP, but I think a small tweak can at least make it serve a purpose. I suggest to reduce its casting time to 1, but heavily nerf the duration down to 10 rounds. This way the spell won't be a cheap Mass Invisibility, but either a very fast "escape" option or a powerful choice for multiple mage-thief backstab combos.

Yay for nerfing it

Melf's Minute Meteors
I guess they are fine as they are. The only suggestion could be to make them deal 100% fire damage instead of missile+fire, but either solutions are fine imo (and both have pros and cons).

I like it as is.

Minor Spell Deflection
The whole Spell Deflection/Turning system will be heavily changed as an optional component to work in a more consistent and effective way.

Ok

Monster Summoning I
We have discussed (and we will discuss) this more in depth in a separate topic. Let's just say I'd love conjurers to have a MS spell (or at least somthing similar) for each spell lvl (even 1st and 2nd lvl).

Yay

Non-Detection
As discussed here, I'll make it work much more similarly to PnP. When targeted by Detect Illusion, Oracle, or True Seeing the protected creature will be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, a failed save means DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

Good

Protection from Missiles
This spell is considered OP by some players, but I don't see many alternative solutions (other than the current one, which more or less is as per Forgotten Realms PnP) to make it appealing. Btw, IR V3 makes Dispelling Arrow work against SR V3's PfM.

I like it as is.

Skull Trap
I'd love to make it 100% as per PnP, but I can't because the AI wouldn't handle it well. I'm starting to think DavidW made a more balanced choice when we decided to nerf its dmg output (he used vanilla's 1d6/lvl but capped it at 12th caster lvl, I used PnP 1d4/lvl capped at 20th caster lvl). What do you think?

I'd also apply a relatively small conceptual tweak, making its damage count as necromantic negativy energy as per PnP. That means it won't harm undead creatures anymore (opening new tactics for necromancers) and we may also think about making Negative Plane Protection work against it.

I use the PnP version and I like it capped at 20th. I like your tewak idea.

Spell Thrust
I think this spell removal may actually keep its small AoE to keep it appealing. What do you think?

I use it a lot, and wouldn't mind the small AoE.

Vampiric Touch
This spell probably suffers the same (or similar) problem of Flame Arrow and Skull Trap, should we alter its dmg/drain progression?

I never use it, should probably.

Regarding not getting enough debate: I guess we got used to you being absent, and then all of a sudden you're here full, and that's nice, but just gives us a chance to return ;-)

Uh and I'll return with the next comment later :)

Cheers

Edited by Shaitan, 21 March 2012 - 06:13 AM.

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#50 Ardanis

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:20 AM

Confusion
Disable it. 4th level needs space for new spells, and with Chaos on 5th I see no reason to keep Confusion.

Contagion
Emotion Despair beats it hands down. Change to Enervation.

Dimension Door
Move to 5th level as a Greater DD. Caster receives an innate refreshable DD for a limited time. LOS is required.

Fire Shields
I'd prefer Elemental Shield ala NWN, with combined effect rather than selection menu. The second shield is moved to 5th level as Acid Sheath.

Spirit Armor
I'd increase it's effect - duration, level progression, whatever, - as well as the backlash. I've played with 4d6 damage, seemed fine.

Dimensional Anchor
Good, but there's no space if we add Vitrolic Sphere, Force Missiles and Phantasmal Killer.
"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#51 Shaitan

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:10 AM

Break Enchantment
I really like what we did to the old Remove Curse. If I can I'll make it work against charms too.

I use it a lot, fine spell.

Confusion
Many players asked to reduce the duration and I'm probably fine with it. My biggest concern though is finding a way to make Confusion and Chaos more different.

I get good use of this in the BG1 part of the game and almost never uses chaos in the first part simply because of the lower xp found there.

Contagion
I think I never used this spell in my life, not even after SR's buff. What do you think of it? Is there something I should do?

I've used it in BG1, it works fine there, but I could easily live without.

Dimension Door
I was thinking to move it to a lower lvl spell slot. With or without "line of sight" limitation it's simply not worth a 4th lvl spell slot imo, am I wrong? Then there's the neverending doubt above the just mentioned LOS and its potential game breaking behaviour.

Don't know, I never use it.

Emotion: Despair
A very nice debuff against melee oriented parties, it probably doesn't need any change unless you want me to make it identical to PnP (aka a Mass Doom spell).

I like it too, use it a lot.

Enchanted Weapon
I'm changing its school from Enchantment to Conjuration as the concept and description suggest ("This spell conjures forth a +3 enchanted weapon..."). If you prefer I can rename it Magical Weapon, but it's really not a big deal imo.

Good with change of school.

Farsight & Wizard Eye
Really too much similar. I would at least make the latter an actual conjuration/summoned creature.

But what would the mean?

Fire Shields
They are fine, but we're thinking of making them work "a la Spell Immunity", sharing the same spell slot and allowing the choice between the two "on the fly".

If doable: yes please.

Greater Malison
What about making it count as a not dispellable curse? It does fit the concept imo, and this buff may please those who didn't liked me making this spell as per PnP (aka halving the monstrous -4 penalty to saves). I'd obviously make Break Enchantment work against it.

Hmm, I like it as it is, but ok give it a try and we'll see.

Ice Storm
I think it's fine, but I'd like to know players opinion. Does many of you use this spell? How does it perform?

I like it a lot, use it often against beholders and fire salamanders. Nice :)

Improved Invisibility
It's fine as it is, and the tweaks to Detect Invisibility and TS will actually make it better.

Yup.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability
It's obviously fine as it is.

Yup.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now?

I like it, but don't use it a lot.

Polymorph Other
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now? This spell is really a pain to balance and I need your feedback.

Sorry, haven't tried it.

Polymorph Self
The flaming halberd wielding Flind form will be replaced by a much better Fire Salamander form. I would add a Troll form, but it may not necessarily replace the Ogre form as the latter offer an option with a +2 blunt weapon (aka an anti-golem form).

Sounds good.

Secret Word
I simply love what I did to this spell in V3. :D

It works perfectly.

Simbul's Spell Matrix
As discussed elsewhere. We're seriously thinking to make all sequencer and contingencies innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. It would make SCS fights more fair (SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it would eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from most players (though I never did it).

Sounds good, still I like SSM as it is.

Spirit Armor
Is it fine as it is?

I'm with Ardanis here.

Teleport Field
If I'm not wrong most of you think this spell should not allow a save as per vanilla, am I correct?

Yeah skip the save.

Cheers
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#52 DrAzTiK

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:31 PM

Fire Shields
They are fine, but we're thinking of making them work "a la Spell Immunity", sharing the same spell slot and allowing the choice between the two "on the fly".

Will it still be possible to use Fire shield + BLue Shield in a sequencer in you do that ?

Greater Malison

I also think that make it undispellable (same lower resistance) will make this spell more appealing.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now?

I like it now.

Teleport Field
If I'm not wrong most of you think this spell should not allow a save as per vanilla, am I correct?

==> Yes, actually, the spell is not very appealing Imo.

Contagion

==> I use it in a sequencer sometimes...

Ice Storm

==> not easy to use this kind of spell without hurt party but Spell is fine Imo.


And what about the fighter kit revisions? :love:

Edited by DrAzTiK, 21 March 2012 - 01:31 PM.


#53 Demivrgvs

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:13 AM

I guess we got used to you being absent, and then all of a sudden you're here full, and that's nice, but just gives us a chance to return ;-)

Yeah, sorry for that, I had a couple of very tough months. :(

Dire Charm

I'd love to make all charm spells as they should, but it all depends on ToBEx I guess.

Would be nice, what do you need?

I need the opcodes to work as they should. Right now the AI correctly can't control a charmed creature (only a dominated one) but when used by players even 1st lvl spell Charm Person allow full control. In theory the 1st lvl one shouldn't let you control the target, it should mainly work as a sort of daze/hold spell, or for quest related purposes (doesn't BG1 uses it in a bunch of circomstances?).

Dire Charm instead should add a sort of berserker state to the target, making him fighting on your side, but only in melee. Domination is the only charm spell working as it should, granting complete control over the target, spellcasting included.

Confusion

Disable it. 4th level needs space for new spells, and with Chaos on 5th I see no reason to keep Confusion.

As I told you in chat, Confusion is the most canonic of the two spells, thus I'm really against removing it.

Contagion

Emotion Despair beats it hands down. Change to Enervation.

Indeed Despair is a much better option. Contagion has slightly more appeal for the AI because players have to deal with its very long duration, but it's hard to find a slot for it anway considering all the great spells at this lvl (e.g. Stoneskin, Emotion, Improved Invisibility, Malison, Polymorph Self, etc.) are way more appealing.

Enervation is a really great suggestion imo but disease is a really underused effect within BG and I feel it's a pity to remove one of the very few sources of it. :(

What about making it a sort of lesser Plague (aka PnP Mass contagion)? Target creature can avoid getting sick, but still brings the incubation around potentially infecting nearby allies. Bad idea?

Dimension Door

Move to 5th level as a Greater DD. Caster receives an innate refreshable DD for a limited time. LOS is required.

So we have two options:
* moving the current version to a lower lvl (perhaps I'm mad but I'd say even 1st lvl could be fine, especially with Line of Sight limit)
* moving it to 5th lvl as you suggest
Let's see what players think about it.

Fire Shields

They are fine, but we're thinking of making them work "a la Spell Immunity", sharing the same spell slot and allowing the choice between the two "on the fly".

Will it still be possible to use Fire shield + BLue Shield in a sequencer in you do that ?

Yes. Making it work via sub-menu a la Spell Immunity was possible even before, but afaik ToBEx is now making possible to use those sub-spells via contingencies and triggers (making SCS mages not "cheat" anymore when using SI that way).

I'd prefer Elemental Shield ala NWN, with combined effect rather than selection menu. The second shield is moved to 5th level as Acid Sheath.

I kinda like the concept (mainly because I dislike the blue version of this spell), but in the end I think we'd mess too much with something all players got used to use and see. No?

Spirit Armor
I thought it was ok, but I the competition for that spell slot is tough. I'll think about possible small improvements.

Kit Revisions

And what about the fighter kit revisions?

I'm kinda stuck with the Wizard Slayer (and I also depend on Ardanis for a bunch of code related things), everything else is done.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 22 March 2012 - 05:40 AM.


#54 Salk

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:43 AM

There is really a lot going on here now.

Some of my thoughts:

Dimension Door
If we want to change its level slot then I would rather see it down to Level 2 (or even 1 as Demi suggested)

Charm spell
I do agree that they should be changed so that they'd work the way they are supposed to. Unfortunately Demi, not only you have been idle in these months. No news from DavidW and Ascension64 either...

Dispel & Remove Magic
I think that these spells are overpowered at high levels so I would not mind a cap. But I seem to remember most people disagreed.

Fireball
I'd leave the radius the way it is in vanilla.

Flame Arrow
I would go for another solution: grant more arrows at early levels like you said but instead of being unharmed with successful save just lower the damage dealt instead.

Confusion
I am also for reducing its duration.

Fire Shield
I would welcome the use of a single slot for this.

Simbul's Spell Matrix
Your remedy would be a bless.

I wrote many other comments but this awful message system introduced after the unsatisfactory overhaul of the G3 board made it disappear somehow. Also, pushing backspace causes serious issues, moving me to a wrong point after having used copy/pasted lines or bolded,underlined, or italic functions.

Edited by Salk, 22 March 2012 - 05:46 AM.


#55 Demivrgvs

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:41 AM

There is really a lot going on here now.

And this is only the tip of the iceberg. ih ih ih Fortunately V3 is already a wonderful base, we can still do a lot, but at least it's not like the huge gap between IR V2 and V3 imo.

Flame Arrow

I would go for another solution: grant more arrows at early levels like you said but instead of being unharmed with successful save just lower the damage dealt instead.

We've discussed this more than you can imagine. There are tons of variables and we still haven't decided which solution is best. I'll try to put down everything to see if we can find together the solution.

Damage Type: we were discussing the possibility of reintroducing a small part of physical dmg (which is fine considering the spell is a conjuration), but I'm not 100% sure (Acid Arrow has always been fine as acid-only, why not Flame Arrow?). If we opt for re-introducing it I'd go with missile dmg instead of vanilla's piercing, and it shouldn't be half of the total dmg, but only enough to simulate an arrow's dmg, thus 1d6 per arrow.

Save for half damage or no damage: conceptually I think this save is supposed to simulate the missing "touch attack" (even Acid Arrow would need a hit roll in PnP, but for balance reason it's fine as it is imo). If you make the save you have avoided the arrow, if you fail the save you take full damage. Having the arrow still hit the target but deal half dmg on successful save make little sense imo. No? Not to mention that since V3 this spell consider each arrow separately, thus you still have to make many saves in a row to avoid all arrows!

Damage output: how much total damage is this spell supposed to do? Right now it deals "only" 1d6/lvl, but I think it should deal slightly more damage than Fireball considering the latter can hit quite a few targets with its huge AoE. The amount of damage though largely depends on damage type (two dmg types are more effective) and save type (if the save negates only half dmg than a smaller dmg output can be fine).

One very daring thought I just had could be of drastically lowering both dmg per arrow (e.g. 2d6) and total dmg, but making the spell not allow a save at all. This way the spell would work as a mix between Acid Arrow (no save) and Magic Missile (multiple hits, no duration).

Let me know what do you think of the various variables I discussed above, then I'll try to find the most balanced solution based on your feedback. :)

I wrote many other comments but this awful message system introduced after the unsatisfactory overhaul of the G3 board made it disappear somehow.

Nooo, sadness. :(

#56 aigleborgne

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:45 PM

Contagion
I think I never used this spell in my life, not even after SR's buff. What do you think of it? Is there something I should do?

I use it on some necromancers, it is efficient on fighter. Despair is overall better, but Contagion also slows its target, which is a good point.

Greater Malison
What about making it count as a not dispellable curse? It does fit the concept imo, and this buff may please those who didn't liked me making this spell as per PnP (aka halving the monstrous -4 penalty to saves). I'd obviously make Break Enchantment work against it.

-2 penalty is still good to have and keep in mind that SR also add many penalties to other spells. It would be too much with -4 to this one.

Ice Storm
I think it's fine, but I'd like to know players opinion. Does many of you use this spell? How does it perform?

It is a good one. Some of my conjurers use it but they need to cast immunity to evocation because minor globe won't work here. In bg1 (where I'm working on), minor globe covers most needs of spell protection, and it is a pain to have to cast immunity to evocation just for a few spells. But Davaeorn uses it along side with fireball and lightning bolt, and all of them are very efficient :)

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now?

Polymorph Other
Did I do a good work on it? Is it fine now? This spell is really a pain to balance and I need your feedback.

My enchanters use them a lot. First, it is almost impossible to script Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in a defensive goal. So I'm only using it as a disabler, like Polymorph other.
In that regard, Polymorph other is clearly better, so I only use Otiluke on some occasion for more variety.
Polymorph Other is a deadly spell. With proper detection spell on this one, an enchanter can totally disable several players, and combine with other enchantment spells, he can pretty cause havoc on party :)

Polymorph Self
The flaming halberd wielding Flind form will be replaced by a much better Fire Salamander form. I would add a Troll form, but it may not necessarily replace the Ogre form as the latter offer an option with a +2 blunt weapon (aka an anti-golem form).

Polymorph Self is a very important spell to me, as it allows mage to enter combat at low levels. But I haven't played with this spell since I haven't made any level 7+ transmuters yet.

Simbul's Spell Matrix
As discussed elsewhere. We're seriously thinking to make all sequencer and contingencies innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. It would make SCS fights more fair (SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it would eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from most players (though I never did it).

This is a good idea, since for example, all these spells are a pain for sorcerer with their small limitation of spells.
And memorize, sleep, and then replaced by another spell, sleep again... painfull !!

#57 Constantine

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:22 AM

Dimension Door

Move to 5th level as a Greater DD. Caster receives an innate refreshable DD for a limited time. LOS is required.

So we have two options:
* moving the current version to a lower lvl (perhaps I'm mad but I'd say even 1st lvl could be fine, especially with Line of Sight limit)
* moving it to 5th lvl as you suggest
Let's see what players think about it.

I actually like Adranis' suggestion. Worth a try IMO.

#58 Constantine

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:40 AM

Dispel & Remove Magic
I think that these spells are overpowered at high levels so I would not mind a cap. But I seem to remember most people disagreed.

Yeah, dispel should not be all-powerful at high levels. Don't know how it's working in SR. From my point of view, if dispel goes stronger with caster level, so should the protections. In that case, 20th level mage should easily dispel a meager protections of low level casters, have some difficulty to cancel spells of mid-level caster, but to remove a fellow high level mage's protections should be relatively difficult.

Fire Shield
I would welcome the use of a single slot for this.

+1

#59 Demivrgvs

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:41 AM

Ok, we've not set everything into stone but most things seem decided up to 4th lvl spells. I'll put down a few more thoughts before moving to 5th lvl spells.

Acid Arrow
While I'm still uncertain regarding Flame Arrow as a whole (# of arrows, max dmg output, etc.), I'm quite certain I'd reintroduce its physical damage. I know Acid Arrow never had it, but what about adding a small 1d6 physical damage to it? I think it would really suit it and make more clear its concept as a Conjuration spell (in 3rd edition this spell even bypass magic resistance because it's considered a real arrow).

I'm obviously speaking of adding 1d6 dmg to the dmg output on hit (1d6 missile + 2d4 acid), the ongoing damage each round would remain unchanged (2d4 acid).

Contagion

I think I never used this spell in my life, not even after SR's buff. What do you think of it? Is there something I should do?

I use it on some necromancers, it is efficient on fighter. Despair is overall better, but Contagion also slows its target, which is a good point.

The problem is that Contagion's effects are only slightly worse than Emotion's ones, but the latter has a huge friendly AoE. Generally failing the save against single target "save or else" spells means the target is almost completely doomed (charmed, polymorphed, feebleminded, petrified, insta-killed, and so on) whereas in this case the target is severly hampered but can still pose a serious threat.

Long story short, this spell cannot truly compete for a 4th lvl spell slot imo unless:
a) on a failed save the disease effects are even more "damaging/disabling" than now
b) we add a secondary effect (e.g. a lesser disease?) with no save
c) we make it affect multiple targets (either via classic AoE or my suggested plague-like solution)


Speaking of Emotion vs Contagion again, one more thing we could do is adjusting their saves. Within V4 I'm going back to a more AD&D-like save penalty system (unlike V3 which makes all save directly tied to spell's lvl and only to that - a la 3rd edition), thus we may for example opt to have Emotion's save vs. spell at -2 penalty and Contagion's save vs. death/poison at -4.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere & Polymorph Other

My enchanters use them a lot. First, it is almost impossible to script Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in a defensive goal. So I'm only using it as a disabler, like Polymorph other.
In that regard, Polymorph other is clearly better, so I only use Otiluke on some occasion for more variety.
Polymorph Other is a deadly spell. With proper detection spell on this one, an enchanter can totally disable several players, and combine with other enchantment spells, he can pretty cause havoc on party :)

Considering this lvl has a bunch of "must-have" such as Stoneskin and MGoI, I expected true Enchanters to fill the remaining 4th lvl spell slots with Confusion, Emotion and Malison.

Anyway, I do think Polymorph Other is a valid spell, I just don't know its true effectiveness because I couldn't use it much. Otoh Resilient Sphere isn't a valid option at all even after V3 improvements, though its defensive role can be effective sometime. Considering ORS doesn't harm the target at all, I'd probably vote to assign it a -4 penalty against its save, to make it at least appealing as an offensive save or else disabling spell.

Polymorph Self

Polymorph Self is a very important spell to me, as it allows mage to enter combat at low levels. But I haven't played with this spell since I haven't made any level 7+ transmuters yet.

This spell rocks within SR imo, and V4 will make it even more cool with Fire Salamander and Troll forms offering even more variety. It's really a shame SCS doesn't have dedicated Transmuters. :(

Simbul's Spell Matrix

As discussed elsewhere. We're seriously thinking to make all sequencer and contingencies innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. It would make SCS fights more fair (SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it would eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from most players (though I never did it).

This is a good idea, since for example, all these spells are a pain for sorcerer with their small limitation of spells.
And memorize, sleep, and then replaced by another spell, sleep again... painfull !!

Ok, it seems we have large consensus on this matter, which is good considering it's a pretty huge change.

I'll be back for 5th lvl spells asap. ;)

#60 Shaitan

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:14 AM

Acid Arrow
While I'm still uncertain regarding Flame Arrow as a whole (# of arrows, max dmg output, etc.), I'm quite certain I'd reintroduce its physical damage. I know Acid Arrow never had it, but what about adding a small 1d6 physical damage to it? I think it would really suit it and make more clear its concept as a Conjuration spell (in 3rd edition this spell even bypass magic resistance because it's considered a real arrow).

I'm obviously speaking of adding 1d6 dmg to the dmg output on hit (1d6 missile + 2d4 acid), the ongoing damage each round would remain unchanged (2d4 acid)..

Sounds good.

Contagion

I think I never used this spell in my life, not even after SR's buff. What do you think of it? Is there something I should do?

I use it on some necromancers, it is efficient on fighter. Despair is overall better, but Contagion also slows its target, which is a good point.

The problem is that Contagion's effects are only slightly worse than Emotion's ones, but the latter has a huge friendly AoE. Generally failing the save against single target "save or else" spells means the target is almost completely doomed (charmed, polymorphed, feebleminded, petrified, insta-killed, and so on) whereas in this case the target is severly hampered but can still pose a serious threat.

Long story short, this spell cannot truly compete for a 4th lvl spell slot imo unless:
a) on a failed save the disease effects are even more "damaging/disabling" than now
b) we add a secondary effect (e.g. a lesser disease?) with no save
c) we make it affect multiple targets (either via classic AoE or my suggested plague-like solution)


Speaking of Emotion vs Contagion again, one more thing we could do is adjusting their saves. Within V4 I'm going back to a more AD&D-like save penalty system (unlike V3 which makes all save directly tied to spell's lvl and only to that - a la 3rd edition), thus we may for example opt to have Emotion's save vs. spell at -2 penalty and Contagion's save vs. death/poison at -4.

I like the plague like idea. That would make it more appealing and make it stand out as a very interesting choice.


Otiluke's Resilient Sphere & Polymorph Other

My enchanters use them a lot. First, it is almost impossible to script Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in a defensive goal. So I'm only using it as a disabler, like Polymorph other.
In that regard, Polymorph other is clearly better, so I only use Otiluke on some occasion for more variety.
Polymorph Other is a deadly spell. With proper detection spell on this one, an enchanter can totally disable several players, and combine with other enchantment spells, he can pretty cause havoc on party :)

Considering this lvl has a bunch of "must-have" such as Stoneskin and MGoI, I expected true Enchanters to fill the remaining 4th lvl spell slots with Confusion, Emotion and Malison.

Anyway, I do think Polymorph Other is a valid spell, I just don't know its true effectiveness because I couldn't use it much. Otoh Resilient Sphere isn't a valid option at all even after V3 improvements, though its defensive role can be effective sometime. Considering ORS doesn't harm the target at all, I'd probably vote to assign it a -4 penalty against its save, to make it at least appealing as an offensive save or else disabling spell.

Make a save vs penalty and let's see if plahyers are using it more.


Polymorph Self

Polymorph Self is a very important spell to me, as it allows mage to enter combat at low levels. But I haven't played with this spell since I haven't made any level 7+ transmuters yet.

This spell rocks within SR imo, and V4 will make it even more cool with Fire Salamander and Troll forms offering even more variety. It's really a shame SCS doesn't have dedicated Transmuters. :(

I agree fully with Demi, I've tested it a bit the last days, and it's impressive. Looking foreward to the Fire Salamander (combined with the new aTweak components this might even be truly fun) :)


Simbul's Spell Matrix

As discussed elsewhere. We're seriously thinking to make all sequencer and contingencies innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. It would make SCS fights more fair (SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it would eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from most players (though I never did it).

This is a good idea, since for example, all these spells are a pain for sorcerer with their small limitation of spells.
And memorize, sleep, and then replaced by another spell, sleep again... painfull !!

Ok, it seems we have large consensus on this matter, which is good considering it's a pretty huge change.

Weeeee

I'll be back for 5th lvl spells asap. ;)

Bring it on :)
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