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SR V4 (planned changes)


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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 06:58 AM

This is where I'll gather all the planned changes, though Im also going to create a bunch of dedicated topics to discuss few things (e.g. New Spells).
 

Global Changes


Saving throws system Done
Most players seem to agree that V3's -5 and -6 penalties on high lvl spells make such spells too effective, and V4 will cap the save penalties to -4. Furthermore, the save penalty won't be strictly standardized anymore (e.g. 1st lvl has no penalty, 2nd has -1, 3rd has -2, and so on) but it's "shaped" to better fit each spell, which is more similar to AD&D vanilla system and also gives me one more variable to balance each spell (e.g spells of the same level can have different save penalties depending on how powerful their effects are).

 

Cure/Cause Wounds & Regenerate Wounds Done
As discussed here.

NWN-style Spell Deflection partially Done
As discussed here.

 

Innate Contingencies & Sequencers
These spells will be turned into innates at will abilities gained by mages at lvl up. Such change should make SCS fights more fair (as SCS mages always have all triggers/contingecies ready), and it will eliminate the odd "rest - prepare triggers - rest again" routine I hear from too many players.
 

Divine Spells

1st Level Spell

Spoiler

2nd Level Spells
Spoiler

3rd Level Spells
Spoiler

4th Level Spells
Spoiler

5th Level Spells
Spoiler

6th Level Spells
Spoiler

7th Level Spells
Spoiler

 

Arcane Spells


1st Level Spells

Spoiler

2nd Level Spells
Spoiler

3rd Level Spells
Spoiler

4th Level Spells
Spoiler

5th Level Spells
Spoiler

6th Level Spells
Spoiler

7th Level Spells
Spoiler

8th Level Spells
Spoiler

9th Level Spells
Spoiler


Edited by Demivrgvs, 28 July 2014 - 12:38 AM.


#2 Salk

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 07:14 AM

God bless Ardanis... :)

#3 Demivrgvs

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 08:56 AM

Let's start giving you something worth discussing. :) I think 1st level arcane spells are pretty much fine as they are but...


Chill Touch
Touch-like spells are my worst nightmare. I haven't received much feedback on this spell, and I guess it's because it's still highly underused...am I wrong? Assuming we agree this spell has to work as a weapon-like spell, should we make it improve with caster lvl?


Color Spray
Is its stunning effect too powerful? Should we replace it with a less debilitating effect? If yes I'd suggest a daze-like effect (cannot attack nor cast spells for 1 round).


Chromatic Orb
If ToBEx really allows SI-like spells to work with contingencies/triggers I may expand this spell to let the caster decide the color (aka the secondary effect) of the orb.


Grease
Because of its small AoE its effects should trigger at least once every 3 seconds instead of every round to make sure opponents walking over its AoE will trigger them at least once (this is especially crucial for its slow-like effect). The save to avoid falling on the ground may get a +2 bonus.


Reflected Image
Some players consider it OP, what's the general consensus over it? Should I slightly lower its duration?


Shocking Grasp
Unlike Chill Touch, which doesn't have a limited use, I'm not sure Shocking Grasp's current "weapon-like with only 1 charge" concept is the best way to represent it. Don't you think making it work much like vanilla's Vampiric Touch (touch range, but no hit roll required) would be better?


Other 1st lvl spells
Is there anything else you'd want to discuss?

For example Blindness was OP till not long ago, but now that SCS makes True Seeing "cure" it and that IR V3 revised potions allows non-priests to cure it I think this spell may be fine as it is. I really don't like Protection from Petrification, but there's little I can do about it, unless we agree we can remove it to make space for Ice Dagger. Another spell I really don't like is Friends (aka cheap discount on stores and nothing else because dialogs don't care about you CHR), but I guess I have to live with it.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 02 August 2011 - 09:54 AM.


#4 Ardanis

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 10:43 AM

Chromatic Orb

If ToBEx really allows SI-like spells to work with contingencies/triggers I may expand this spell to let the caster decide the color (aka the secondary effect) of the orb.

Great.

Reflected Image
Reduce duration? To 3+1/5lvl or so.

True Strike
Make it grant a single critical hit.
"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#5 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 06:58 AM

Reflected Image

Reduce duration? To 3+1/5lvl or so.

Yeah, even a fixed value between 4-6 rounds range may be fine imo. This spell is very tricky because it's a sort PfMW-like spell which works "only" 50% of times but also work on single target spells such as Acid Arrow. Determing its true effectiveness on paper is really hard.

True Strike

Make it grant a single critical hit.

Wouldn't that sound like granting mages a warrior's HLA as 1st lvl spell. I guess the difference is 1 hit (a pain to implement but doable) vs 1 round duration. Is its V2 version unappealing?

Too bad I don't have a custom ids to add its PnP ability to ignore AC bonuses from spells such as Blur and II (much like I would have loved to implement a proper PnP True Seeing). :)


Anyway, my two biggest gripes when it comes to 1st lvl spells surely are Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp. What do you think of them?

#6 Ardanis

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:47 AM

Reflected Image
David said that with short duraion this spell is unusable by AI on mid-high levels, because it would have to compete with PFMW and always lose.

At the same time, I can still see a room for player-use, because unlike PFMW it's cumulative with Stoneskin and can greatly help against greater golems and other melee foes, who still may be not worth casting a 6th level spell.

True Strike
1) The name implies one guaranteed hit
2) There's already Tenser, if we want warrior's thaco
3) 1 round is indeed hard to use

Chill Touch & Shocking Grasp
One - ranged touch, another - enhanced attack (5 rounds?). I suppose CT is better for attack, and SG - for ranged, as you say. But then it'd have to be renamed, as I can't imagine a ranged grasp.
"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#7 Shaitan

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:22 AM

Chill Touch
Touch-like spells are my worst nightmare. I haven't received much feedback on this spell, and I guess it's because it's still highly underused...am I wrong? Assuming we agree this spell has to work as a weapon-like spell, should we make it improve with caster lvl?

Underused, as in I never use them...

Color Spray
Is its stunning effect too powerful? Should we replace it with a less debilitating effect? If yes I'd suggest a daze-like effect (cannot attack nor cast spells for 1 round).

I'd go with the daze-effect.


Chromatic Orb
If ToBEx really allows SI-like spells to work with contingencies/triggers I may expand this spell to let the caster decide the color (aka the secondary effect) of the orb.

Yay, that is good!

Grease
Because of its small AoE its effects should trigger at least once every 3 seconds instead of every round to make sure opponents walking over its AoE will trigger them at least once (this is especially crucial for its slow-like effect). The save to avoid falling on the ground may get a +2 bonus.

Fine with me, though the +2 bonus isn't crucial.

Other 1st lvl spells
Is there anything else you'd want to discuss?

For example Blindness was OP till not long ago, but now that SCS makes True Seeing "cure" it and that IR V3 revised potions allows non-priests to cure it I think this spell may be fine as it is.

Hmm ToBex is messing with Blindness, does that affect V3 Blindness?

I really don't like Protection from Petrification, but there's little I can do about it, unless we agree we can remove it to make space for Ice Dagger.

I use it heavily in BG1, as my main protection against gazeattacks. So beware removing it.

Another spell I really don't like is Friends (aka cheap discount on stores and nothing else because dialogs don't care about you CHR), but I guess I have to live with it.

Quest Pack have made use of Friends in Burglary Of The Bookkeeper. But that could perhaps be circumvened?

Cheers
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#8 amanasleep

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 09:43 AM

Chill Touch
Touch-like spells are my worst nightmare. I haven't received much feedback on this spell, and I guess it's because it's still highly underused...am I wrong? Assuming we agree this spell has to work as a weapon-like spell, should we make it improve with caster lvl?


Chill Touch is actually pretty good, but nobody uses it. The cold damage goes right through Stoneskins, and the weapon is considered unenechanted so it goes right through PfMW. It also grants +4 Thac0. The on-hit Thac0 drain has a save, but if you can get enough attacks in on a powerful opponent it can save you some hits. Temporary Strength drain might be better, but could make it overpowered as this can instakill. Maybe temp Str drain with a 3 round duration?

It is really good for F/M and Bard characters to disrupt enemy spellcasters.

#9 Pacek

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:54 PM

Chill touch/Shocking Grasp:
I think the main problem with melee spells is it puts your wizard right on the front line. Of course there's nothing wrong with that if you're a F/M or even bard, but then your going to have (hopefully) some pretty good weapons on you, and probably dual wieding, right? So you could tailor chill touch to these classes by making it dual-weilded (Your wizard has two hands, don't they?). As for Shocking Grasp, if my mind serves, BG1 this spell didn't need an attack roll, which is a much better implementation IMO.

Friends
I think the only way to make this truly useful (and work as the description states) is to re-work every encounter to offer a non-violent solution. Way out of the question, surely. I think it might JUST be usable if you seriously extend its duration to 8 hours or something.

Blindness
Only thing I don't like about this is its drastically reduced range of vision. Now just hear me out: Any effect which highlights shortcomings in the AI is bad, and here we have an effect which is so much more debilitating for AI than for the human player. Also range of vision surely must also represent other senses like hearing right?? And -10 thac0 is pretty hefty penalty as it is.

On the subject of AI shortcomings:
Charm
So much more useful for the human player. Are you able to make charmed party members act hostile? Or else disable the ability to control charmed creatures (which would make the spell so much less appealing).

True Strike
I liked it and used it as a blade. Here is a spell also very well suited to the dual-weilding multiclass

Color Spray
I remember being hit by its SR version and its effects stacked, which didn't seem intended according to its description. Is it bugged or am I mistaken?

Do you intend to use Tobex's "Apply Concentration Check On Damage"? Cos while I reckon this is really cool, it disrupts the balance of the game a little, making spellcasters slightly more powerful and spells like Magic Missile more redundant.

#10 polytope

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 06:56 PM

Chill touch/Shocking Grasp:
I think the main problem with melee spells is it puts your wizard right on the front line. Of course there's nothing wrong with that if you're a F/M or even bard, but then your going to have (hopefully) some pretty good weapons on you, and probably dual wieding, right? So you could tailor chill touch to these classes by making it dual-weilded (Your wizard has two hands, don't they?). As for Shocking Grasp, if my mind serves, BG1 this spell didn't need an attack roll, which is a much better implementation IMO.


The standard "create magic item" opcode always uses magic weapon slot and can't equip a character for dualwielding, there is another code (143) which can, but is bugged and actually replaces whatever was in that slot permanently.

Chill touch - make it work as a "melee hit effect" (i.e. monks' stunning blow) - so a character isn't "stuck" using CT if they run into something it cannot hit.

Shocking Grasp, Ghoul Touch (the latter is supposed to be single target paralysis, but with a sickening "aura" that can get multiple enemies) etc. There is a way to make these usable only once but allow multiple attempts to hit a creature (that they would vanish on a miss is their biggest downside in vanilla) - rather than using expendable charges include a "remove item" 112 opcode under each touch attack's melee header so that it will remove itself on a successful hit.

Edited by polytope, 03 August 2011 - 07:02 PM.

Polytweak - Polytope's enhancements of BG2 creatures, NPCs and the proficiency system.

#11 JosephJohnson

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:26 PM

Chill Touch
Touch-like spells are my worst nightmare. I haven't received much feedback on this spell, and I guess it's because it's still highly underused...am I wrong? Assuming we agree this spell has to work as a weapon-like spell, should we make it improve with caster lvl?

Color Spray
Is its stunning effect too powerful? Should we replace it with a less debilitating effect? If yes I'd suggest a daze-like effect (cannot attack nor cast spells for 1 round).

Shocking Grasp
Unlike Chill Touch, which doesn't have a limited use, I'm not sure Shocking Grasp's current "weapon-like with only 1 charge" concept is the best way to represent it. Don't you think making it work much like vanilla's Vampiric Touch (touch range, but no hit roll required) would be better?

I really don't like Protection from Petrification, but there's little I can do about it, unless we agree we can remove it to make space for Ice Dagger. Another spell I really don't like is Friends (aka cheap discount on stores and nothing else because dialogs don't care about you CHR), but I guess I have to live with it.

If you want to make space for Ice Dagger, you could move protection from petrification to second level the way it was in BG1.

For color spray, daze makes way more sense than stun. If you had rainbow color lights flashed in your face, you'd most likely end up a bit dizzy rather than unable to move.

Touch spells are powerful as they are but no one uses them anyway. It has more to do with play styles than their effectiveness. Making them ranged would remove the whole concept.

I agree with your view on the friends spell but I don't think you should remove it.

#12 Kalindor

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:42 PM

I think the touch spells should get better with level. They should definitely do much more damage than the corresponding fire-and-forget missile attack of the same level.
As your mage levels up, he has more desirable alternatives to entering melee combat, so these spells need to improve to remain at least somewhat relevant.
A fighter-mage type character will need a reason to cast these spells in lieu of using the more powerful weapons they find as the game goes on.
In my opinion, making these spells inflict a single, very powerful hit that improves with level would make them appealing to fighter-mages at least. They would be used much like a melee-ranged HLA as a special combat technique. A duration-based magical weapon is doomed to failure as it cannot provide any kind of appealing alternative to mid-game weapons.

#13 Dakk

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:19 AM

Friends
I think it might JUST be usable if you seriously extend its duration to 8 hours or something.

I've got a (surely) crazy suggestion. What if the duration was extended to, say, 8 hours, and another effect was added? From the description:

Those who view the caster tend to be very impressed with the spellcaster and make an effort to be his friends and help him [...]; attacking orcs might spare the caster's life, taking him captive instead.

If we interpreted this as an hesitancy to strike the caster, we could add a minor AC-bonus, like +1 vs melee weapons. Then, in comparison:
Friends:
8 hours [debatable]
+4 CHA
+1 AC vs melee weapons

Mage Armour:
8 hours
base AC 6 (improves with level)

Shield:
5 turns
Immunity to Magic Missile
+2 AC (+4 vs missile weapons)

Be gentle on me :)

Blindness
Only thing I don't like about this is its drastically reduced range of vision. Now just hear me out: Any effect which highlights shortcomings in the AI is bad, and here we have an effect which is so much more debilitating for AI than for the human player. Also range of vision surely must also represent other senses like hearing right?? And -10 thac0 is pretty hefty penalty as it is.

More on the subject here.

Edited by Dakk, 04 August 2011 - 04:20 AM.


#14 Constantine

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:25 AM

Chill Touch is actually pretty good, but nobody uses it. The cold damage goes right through Stoneskins, and the weapon is considered unenechanted so it goes right through PfMW. It also grants +4 Thac0. The on-hit Thac0 drain has a save, but if you can get enough attacks in on a powerful opponent it can save you some hits. Temporary Strength drain might be better, but could make it overpowered as this can instakill. Maybe temp Str drain with a 3 round duration?

It is really good for F/M and Bard characters to disrupt enemy spellcasters.

I think it nearly useless for mages as meleeing is almost always worse than shooting good old MM from the safe distance.

Enemy mage with Stoneskin but without MGOI? :)

#15 Constantine

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:46 AM

Charm
So much more useful for the human player. Are you able to make charmed party members act hostile? Or else disable the ability to control charmed creatures (which would make the spell so much less appealing).

As I recall, they already act pretty hostile, the melee classes at least. However, it would be nice to assign the custom script to charmed character according to his class, so warrior could fight in melee (It's the default behavior for the enemy-charmed characters, isn't it ?), rogue backstab, mage cast some spells available to him and so on.

I wouldn't recommend to disable control of charmed creatures, that's for sure.



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