12 replies to this topic

[Ardanis]

Bardic Music
Rather than sticking to a single effect for the entire game, I think there's a far better possibility.

As you probably know, the song's effect can be overriden with 'Spell Effect: Change Bard Song Effect [251]'. So here's the idea - bards receive several self-renewable innates that will change the song from one to another. Activating one will waste a round, but imo it's logical - tuning to another melody takes time.

Thoughts for song effects are mainly borrowed from NWN2.

Courage (1)
Allies within 30' receive +1 thaco and morale. Bonus increases by 1 / 8 levels.

Fascinate (1)
Opponents within 15' must save vs spells or be dazed for one 1d4 rounds. AoE increases by 5' / 6 levels.

Toughness (3)
Allies within 30' receive +1 AC and save vs death. Bonus increases by 1 / 8 levels.

Lillaby (6)
Opponents within 30' must save vs spells at +5 bonus of fall asleep for 1 turn. Save penalty increases by -1 / 6 levels.

Countersong (9)
Allies within 30' receive 5+1/8lvl MR (up to +10 on 40th).

Disenchantment (12)
Allies within 30' are freed from curses and charm effects. The probability is 20% + 5% / 10 levels.

Heroism (15)
Allies within 15' receive +1 damage and save vs spells. Bonus increases by 1 / 10 levels.

Cacophony (18)
Everybody with 20' must save vs spells or take 2d6 magical damage. Save penalty increases by -1 / 6 levels.

Enthralling (HLA)
Opponents with 15' must save vs spells (+5 bonus) or be charmed/dominated for 5 rounds. Save penalty increases by -1 / 6 levels.

And so on. Kits will need their own lists. Other HLAs may include increased duration of the effect (Lingering Song), increased probability (save penalty of %) where applicable, AoE, power of effects, etc.

Edited by Ardanis, 04 March 2011 - 05:26 PM.

[leania]

Well, though it's really cool ideas I think it's enough to give Lingering Song as normal ability, not HLA.

Bards can get it very early at IWD2, so it's reasonable. It makes Bards more unique compared with F/M. It's even only thing what they only can do.

Edited by leania, 05 March 2011 - 05:38 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Ardanis, on Mar 5 2011, 03:25 AM, said:

As you probably know, the song's effect can be overriden with 'Spell Effect: Change Bard Song Effect [251]'. So here's the idea - bards receive several self-renewable innates that will change the song from one to another. Activating one will waste a round, but imo it's logical - tuning to another melody takes time.

Besides that, the songs effects also can last the whole round, so...

I don't know... do you have a list for the other standard kits ? As I would assume this one is for the non kitted bard... so they can have a smaller, but still a bit varied list.

[Demivrgvs]

Well, I haven't "studied" bards much (I focused on warriors and rogues), but I'll try to give my 2 cents.

The things I planned to discuss more or less are:
1) bard's songs
2) bards can cast spells while wearing light armors
3) bard's spellbook
4) specific kit's features

1) I'm partially fascinated by the possibility of granting bards more than a single song, but I'll do the devil's advocate and say that at the same time the work may not be worth the effort. Are we sure we can have so many cool and unique songs? For example your suggested Insipire Heroism, Courage and Toughness are vanilla's Skald song split in 3 different songs. Is it a pro? Isn't a Disenchantment song going to overlap too much with SR's Break Enchantment spell? Having 3 or 4 unique and approriate songs (1 for each class/kit) already seems hard enough to me (in fact I would have done something very very similar to aVENGER's RR). I'm not even sure of those few unique suggested songs I really like. For example let's take Lillaby: it's like granting bards infinite Sleep spells, and at the same time it kinda removes the uniqueness of the Jester kit, as you'd give to plain bard a song which affects opponents instead of allies and works more or less like Jester's one (and unconsciousness is better than confusion).

That being said, I like it on paper, I'm just not convinced about its implementation here in BG. If you manage to convince me I'd be glad to change my mind.

P.S on a side note, I don't like Blades completely losing their bardic music feature (they don't in PnP, though their PnP hindrance makes even less sense, because a bard not able to read scrolls or use wands makes no sense imo), and I was thinking to melt their PnP Weapon Display with it: their song still doesn't improve, but at xth lvl they could be able to sing while fighting keeping the song's bonus intact for 1 more round with each hit (much like IR's Singing Sword). Silly idea?

2) Self-explaining. This alone would be a HUGE boost for bards (at least to mid-low lvl bards because later on elven chain "erases" it), but it's also a radical rule change and AD&D purists may not like it.

3) Should we make bard's spellbook slightly more unique? Personally I really dislike them sharing the same exact spellbook of mages, because I think they should focus on enchantments and illusions, with a bit of transmutations and perhaps a bit of everything (much like their 3rd edition spellbook) but many spells really don't fit them imo, especially invocations, conjurations and necromancies. Am I the only one thinking this way?

This discussion alone could take ages if you end up agreeing with me. We could start discussing about allowing bards to cast few non-mage spells (e.g. Silence is a must imo) or adding few unique ones (e.g. Soundburst?). I'm less convinced about allowing them to cast few spells from the healing sphere as per 3rd edition, though it would surely make them extremely more appealing, truly turning them into jacks of all trades.

4) I'd discuss this after reaching a consensus on the other global points.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 07 March 2011 - 05:08 AM.

[Ardanis]

1) Sure

Unlike 3rd Ed., songs (and Turn Undead) are infinite in BG2. If the effect is powerful, then I bet it is going to be turned on on a permanent basis, and if it's weak then never. In the first case a bard takes zero action himself, in the latter he's identical to FM/MT.

Having a list of songs with different effectts allows for diversity. I'd also be stranged if a professional artist knows only a single song. I don't pretend that my suggetsions in the first post are perfectly balanced either (*). For instance, songs can differ not only by the power of opcode itself, but also by the save penalty and duration.

As far as kits are concerned, imo they should probably focus on a particular repertoir and cast songs from it with a slightly greater effect, e.g. Skalds mostly getting to choose between AC/thaco/damage, Jesters - between Sleep/Confusion/Fear, and so on. Not all-in-one.
Blade - yeah, I was thinking along letting them keep 1-2 basic songs, perhaps even without a cap on improvement.

2) Yes

3) I'm kinda indifferent. As far as I can tell from playing NWN2, the couple of rare occasions when I had Grobnar in party, bardic selection isn't fancy, and the fact it included Cure Wounds was rather disheartening.


(*)
I WANT THE EDIT BUTTON BACK! GRIM HEAVEN, DO YOU HEAR ME?! BY THE LIGHT OF HADES I SO COMMAND THEE TO!

Edited by Ardanis, 07 March 2011 - 11:16 AM.

[Dakk]

I can edit my posts to my hearts' content!

EDIT: just to rub it in

Edited by Dakk, 07 March 2011 - 03:35 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Quote

2) bards can cast spells while wearing light armors

Can you even do that so that it's compatible with the armor systems made in the other mods, like the Item Revision? Yes, I am talking about the different ways to go about it, spell casting delay, spell casting failure, no action, and disabiling the casting ? As you cannot provide protection from an effect, just an opcode, which is kinda bad for spells like silence, insect swarm etc.

Dakk, on Mar 8 2011, 01:35 AM, said:

I can edit my posts to my hearts' content!

EDIT: just to rub it in

But... try it now, Dakk.
EDIT: See you cannot anymore, as only the last post can be edited.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 07 March 2011 - 11:10 PM.

[Ardanis]

Quote

Can you even do that so that it's compatible with the armor systems made in the other mods, like the Item Revision? Yes, I am talking about the different ways to go about it, spell casting delay, spell casting failure, no action, and disabiling the casting ? As you cannot provide protection from an effect, just an opcode, which is kinda bad for spells like silence, insect swarm etc.

Reading for anti-arcane effects and then turning then into an array of 177s for all five wizards multiclasses is not particularily time consuming to code. It's the install order that is important here, as the less mods demand to be the last, the less headache to maintain it is.
Or course, assuming we also want to patch kitted CREs, something will have to go last anyway, so...

[Demivrgvs]

Ardanis, on Mar 8 2011, 08:41 AM, said:

Quote

Can you even do that so that it's compatible with the armor systems made in the other mods, like the Item Revision? Yes, I am talking about the different ways to go about it, spell casting delay, spell casting failure, no action, and disabiling the casting ? As you cannot provide protection from an effect, just an opcode, which is kinda bad for spells like silence, insect swarm etc.

Reading for anti-arcane effects and then turning then into an array of 177s for all five wizards multiclasses is not particularily time consuming to code. It's the install order that is important here, as the less mods demand to be the last, the less headache to maintain it is.
Or course, assuming we also want to patch kitted CREs, something will have to go last anyway, so...

Yep, assuming KR is installed kinda late there's really no problem making the whole spell failure system working via multiple EFF working only on mages (and those EFF can handle any type of failure from vanilla's diasbling one, to IR's % failure and casting speed).

[DeathKnight1728]

The one thing that always annoyed me about bards in bg2 and tutu was that there was no lingering song effect. If there was a way to modify the songs and make them last for an extra 2 rounds, that would be an actual point to using them-instead of just standing there playing songs, getting shot.

[SixOfSpades]

FWIW, one of my back-burner plans is to take all of the musical instruments in the game (Methild's Harp, Horn of Silence, etc) and give them an additional usability: As well as their original Wand-like daily use, they can change the user's active Bard Song to one unique to the item. Bards and all their kits also have an infinite-use ability to return to their own original Song. All the new Songs would increase in power with the user's levels, just as the existing ones do, and the HLA of Improved Bard Song could be eliminated: All of the Songs automatically kick up one final notch when the Bard hits Level 25, just for simplicity's sake. My mod plan also includes an all-new store, featuring some additional instruments both old and new . . . and not all of which are instruments: The "Whistling Sword," for example, was a plain Shortsword+2 in BG1, but per its Description can change the user's Bard Song to "Soothing Lullaby."

Balance Issues:
1) When an instrument's Song has effects similar to a kit's Song, the instrument must always be weaker than the kit's. e.g., a Skald using the Harp of Pandemonium to play "Bedlam's Ball" must be less effective at Confusing enemies than a plain ol' Jester of the same EXP.
2) All Songs must be weaker than comparable spells/wands/potions with comparable effects. A Jester's regular Song cannot be the equal of casting Confusion every round until the Jester has at least the same EXP as a pureclassed Mage who is capable of casting Chaos every round.
3) Certain instruments (and therefore Songs) could be made unusable to certain kits, for flavor and to preserve kit disadvantages like the Blade's weakened Song, and to chisel out a nice niche for the pureclassed Bard as the only kit that can play any Song. It might be possible to limit certain kits' progression in certain songs (Skalds have no specific antipathy for demons or the undead that I know of, so handicapping their progress in "Lament for the Damned" seems justified), but implementing this seems difficult.

As for Bardic spellcasting, tweaking their spellbooks away from certain schools of magic sounds interesting, but frankly I think that would be more in the playground of mod kits rather than the default base-class.

[leania]

Actually, I like RR's modification of Bards though I couldn't be satified about it.

1) I think it's good idea but this change would require huge works... I think RR's approach is cool enough though it may need some improvements. How about making the songs of each kit to be much more unique? For example, True Bard's song gives some buffs that remove specific effects such as confusion, berserking, sleep, and so on. Skald's song should give combat-related buffs such as +hit/dmg, -AC, and so on. Jester's song should disturb enemies rather than helping allies. Finally, Blades can't use his song (no progression per lvl up) but their successful hit may give chance to raise morale during very short duration (like a round) because their fighting style is so gaudy like sword dance.

2) I agreed with it. Even though this merit would disappear due to the elven chains, it makes Bards more unique compared with F/M.

3) I think it is also good idea but it's not easy to implement. And it may cause another issue that which spells should be picked for Bards.

4) This is the most important thing to make Bards more attactive. The changes of HLA of RR/Refinements were very cool, however, we may need to discuss about it. That is, as I wrote in the topic of Thieves, Bards also may need some additional own abilities but not HLA.

[leania]

I want to arrange my suggestion for Bards here. The True Bard has the features as Demi mentioned.

1. True Bard
Can cast spells while wearing light armors.
Bard's song (There are 3 types of Bard's song. First, Battle Song, which gives some bonuses for combat, e.g., THAC0, AC, Saving throw, etc. Second, Disenchantment Song, which disturbs enemies, e.g., confusion, berserk, etc. Third, Stable Song, which removes some debuff status effects, e.g., remove fear).
Original spell book (Should not incude direct dmg spells such as Magic Missile and Fireball).
High lore.
High pick pockets.
Lingering Song (as normal ability, the effects of his or her song last an additional 2 rounds).

2. Skald (Warrior-like bard, Buffer)
Advantages
++ weapon proficiencies.
Has Enhanced Battle Song.
Can use any weapons (including composite long bows/heavy x-bows).
Can use any shields.
Can wear helms.
Disadvantages
No Disenchantment Song.
-1 spell cast time.
Spell restriction (Skald may not use some domain's spells).

3. Jester (Caster-like bard, Debuffer)
Advantages
Can wear robes.
Has Enhanced Disenchantment Song.
Can cast more spells (sepecially direct dmg spells).
Disadvantages
Can only become proficient with weapons that are usable by the Thief class.
Can not cast spells while wearing light armors.
No Battle Song.

4. Blade (F/M-like features & weaker Buff/Debuff ability as bard)
Advantages
Can use Offensive Spin and Defensive Spin abilities (We may need to revise the abilities).
Obtains ++ proficiency in two weapon fighting style at first level.
Can perform "Sword Dancing" passive ability.
Disadvantages
No any songs.
Lower lore.
Lower pick pockets.
Can not use shields.
NOTE: Sword Dancing ability is a passive ability that Blade can encourage allies/terrify enemies. That is, the effect is occured per each hit (25~30% chance), and when it triggered weaker buff or debuff effect (Similar with Battle Song/Disenchantment Song effect, but short duration/short range) is produced. As each song get stronger and stronger according to the level progression, Sword Dancing ability may become stronger. However, I suggest the effect should be fixed. Instead of growing up the effect, The number of cumulation will be increased. e.g., at 15th level blade can be cumulative the effect by 2times. The cumulation of the effects may not be easy because it requires high APR/THAC0 to hit the opponent successfully for triggering the effect.

Edited by leania, 20 June 2012 - 01:42 AM.