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#16 Demivrgvs

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:23 AM

I strongly disagree with the suggestion of altering thaco progression.
It's one of the core rules of AD&D.

Yeah, that's pretty much the only reason I'm against it, because balance-wise it might makes sense instead.

...
That's -10

A fighter with the same equip has :
Base thaco @lvl 21 : 0
Longsword +3 : -3
Strength 18/00 : -2
That's -5. They hit 75% of the time.

Ehm...STR18/00 means +3 bonus to hit, and you're forgetting proficiencies points, which means at least another +2. Thus, a commonly equipped warrior hits a commonly equipped opponent 90% of times. BUT, the problem is that player's warriors are exceptionally equipped (+4 weapons isn't the only difference, they can get tons of items to increase STR/thac0) against commonly equipped opponents (let's face it, most opponents within BG2 have a pretty bad equipment, and more often than not even even boss-like opponents have great equipment). Long story short, player controlled warriors hit 100% of times within mid-late game unless the targets are magically buffed/protected.

If you want to nerf fighters, nerf improved haste instead, tht grants them 2-4 attacks per round for 1-3mn .

That's already planned, though it won't be a complete nerf. IH will grant +2 apr instead of 2x, which means warriors won't be able to "exploit" it gaining +3-5 apr (dual wielders won't be advantaged anymore), but all non-warriors will benefit from it twice as much (they only get +1 apr from it in vanilla).

#17 Guest_Guest_Aranthys_*_*

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 01:31 AM

We're talking about a level 21 fighter (4,250,000 xp) with high strength and highly specialized in a specific weapon. They should hit reliably, it's all they can do.

Plus, remember, at very high level (20+), to help against incoming damage you need
- Immunity to damage / Stoneskin / Mirror Image
- %damage resistance (That's how you can manage to tank the damage coming from Ascension / SCSII Abazygal, only thanks to an HLA, otherwise your fighters become minced meat)

The problem in defense is that thieves and clerics have neither of these.
Thieves rely on other things (mostly invis potions) and clerics die fast (even with a 25% resistance to all kind of phisical damage from armor of faith)

Also remember that if you're talking about basic ennemies, these are not level 21 ennemies.
They are usually level 7-12 ennemies equipped with +2/+3 items.

It's only at the very end of SoA or in ToB that you start seeing fighters becoming powerhouses that plow through anything that don't have massive HP / magical protections.

Attack and defense are not balanced, they have never been and were never meant to be, I'd say.
AC is not the only way one can defend against fighters.
Good HP pool, phisical resistances, spells/abilities, items are also other defensive means. And dealing huge amount of damage yourself.

Going from hitting 75% of the time to hitting 100% of the time is an increase of 33% in damage.
Going from 3 attacks hitting 100% of the time to 6 attacks hitting 100% of the time is an incease of 100% in damage.
Even just having it grant +2 attacks is a 66% increase in damage to a character that has 3 attacks per round.

That's why improved haste is totally overpowered, and even lowering the additional attacks to 2 would keep it (less) overpowered.

Make it grant other bonuses instead, rather than additional attacks. some possible options :
- AoE regular haste + slight decrease in casting time for casters (-1 casting time) to make it a preferable option over the regular level 3 haste.
- Make it last much longer (Fixed 10 turns duration), kinda like a "permanent haste" spell.
- Grant additional AB/AC over "normal haste"
- Make it a combination of Haste on party and Slow on ennemies with a huge radius and a -2/-3 penality on the saving throw (Might require to rename the spell in this case maybe ? )
- Make it not cause fatigue at the end.
- And so on. I'm sure you can find a lot of other ideas to nerf improved haste for fighters but to still keep it useful

Since this spell doesn't even exist in PnP, you can pretty much do whatever you want with it.
Without an absurd amount of attacks, the damage output of fighters, instead of beeing
20 per hit x 6 = 120 per round
stays at
20 per hit x 3 = 60 per round.

#18 Guest_Robocasper_*

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:27 PM

Playing NOT with the THAC0 tables over the AD&D rules (except slight tweaks here and there) I suggest. I prefer mods that adjust armor instead. The Refinements mod has the right idea, but I don't like to mess with the DEX or the character speed much [-2 DEX* and slight reduced movement for the heaviest armors perhaps]. I prefer to reduce the damage more than anything else. *non-magical, but only -1 DEX for magical

Here is what shields should be for example (starting ideas came from IR mod):
Buckler: AC 1, No Missile/Piercing {no change from original} - original BG1 needed a basic +1...by the way
Small Shield: AC 1
Medium Shield: AC 2, 2% resistance
Large Shield: AC 3, 4% resistance, -1 THAC0

These are the base resistances, so if a medium shield had 10%, then it would end up with 12%. Note the resistance would stack with other armors worn, etc.
My 3 cents (inflation strikes) :)

#19 polytope

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:43 PM

If you want to nerf fighters, nerf improved haste instead, tht grants them 2-4 attacks per round for 1-3mn .

That's already planned, though it won't be a complete nerf. IH will grant +2 apr instead of 2x, which means warriors won't be able to "exploit" it gaining +3-5 apr (dual wielders won't be advantaged anymore), but all non-warriors will benefit from it twice as much (they only get +1 apr from it in vanilla).

I'm responding to an old post, but I just thought I should mention this - type 1 haste sets the hardcoded stat IMPROVEDHASTE.

Enemies with IH memorized (SCSII and RR only, atm) will check for this before casting IH, and will waste time recasting it if it does anything except double attacks per round.

Playing NOT with the THAC0 tables over the AD&D rules (except slight tweaks here and there) I suggest. I prefer mods that adjust armor instead. The Refinements mod has the right idea, but I don't like to mess with the DEX or the character speed much [-2 DEX* and slight reduced movement for the heaviest armors perhaps]. I prefer to reduce the damage more than anything else. *non-magical, but only -1 DEX for magical

Here is what shields should be for example (starting ideas came from IR mod):
Buckler: AC 1, No Missile/Piercing {no change from original} - original BG1 needed a basic +1...by the way
Small Shield: AC 1
Medium Shield: AC 2, 2% resistance
Large Shield: AC 3, 4% resistance, -1 THAC0

These are the base resistances, so if a medium shield had 10%, then it would end up with 12%. Note the resistance would stack with other armors worn, etc.
My 3 cents (inflation strikes)

Physical damage resistance poses a balance issue, it's likely to be overpowered for PCs and not enough for enemies. After all, DR doesn't stop the on-hit effects of the party's artifact level weapons like the Flail of Ages, Ravager halberd etc.

It's easy by ToB levels to get 65 - 80 % damage resistance for at least one party member with the right equipment, with Refinements added armor resistances all of your frontliners can have this - it's going to be very hard for enemies to deal with multiple highly damage resistant fighters, especially if they have Regeneration precast (they'll need to deal about 150 dmg/round to even make a dent in the hp of a hasted, regenerating, 75% damage resistant fighter).

Edited by polytope, 19 October 2011 - 04:45 PM.

Polytweak - Polytope's enhancements of BG2 creatures, NPCs and the proficiency system.

#20 subtledoctor

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

TOTALLY necroing this thread, but it's here, so why not.

Just want to mention that I am currently running through a BGT game with a nerfed thac0 table, and it is working out very well. Basically, I have warriors starting at 19 and maxing out at 5: bards starting at 19 and capped at 8; thieves and priests starting at 20 and capped at 9; and wizards starting at 20 and capped at 13.

So thac0 is nerfed for everybody; BUT I balance this by buffing the thac0 bonuses for specialization. Specialized gives +1 thac0 and +1/2 APR; mastery and high mastery give +2 thac0 each; and grandmastery gives +2 thac0 and +1/2 APR. Aditionally, bards & rangers & paladins can get 3 weapon pips, and thieves and priests can get 2.

So thieves and clerics can get to thac0 8; bards get to thac0 6; rangers and paladins get to thac0 2; and fighters get to thac0 -2. But those values only hold for weapons the character has invested in, and grandmastery is more valuable and better differentiates pure fighters from other warriors.

My house rules are arbitrary, but the main point is, it's not the thac0 alone that matters, but the interaction between thac0 and other things like weapon proficiencies, that determines whether the revisions will work well.



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