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#1 Ardanis

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:24 AM

A mere thought that came to me just about - why don't we nerf the progression? I see a great lot of advantages in doing so:

- epic fighter with WWs only as HLA picks won't be so unbalanced anymore
- Critical Strike HLA suddenly becomes incredibly useful
- Kensai/Archer and rogue kits, as well as anything with thaco bonus, receive a real advantage
- combat stances and items that sacrifice thaco in favor of more damage/apr are more balanced
- wizards can rely on AC boosting spells (the suggested Mantle tweak) to keep themselves safe - which, as David says and I agree, is not much viable right now

Some may argue that such change will make wizards even stronger in comparison. Well, perhaps. Still, they have a limit on how many spells they can cast, and I personally do not rest after every single fight.

I'd allow <20 levels to grant half the vanilla bonus, and 20+ - a quarter. Thus we also get rid of the odd priest's 2/3 odd-looking progression, as well as no bonus for epic levels (not that I'm much bothered by the latter). 20th fighter will have base thaco of 10, 40th - 5.

Edited by Ardanis, 11 February 2011 - 04:25 AM.

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#2 Demivrgvs

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:04 AM

Sorry I don't have much time lately but I'll try to give my 2 cents.

This is the reverse of what you previously suggested (improving overall AC values of AI characters via non magical items or other ways), but for various reasons I don't like it much. Leaving aside PnP rules for a moment I actually fear there would be more problems than benefits (but I may be wrong). Even mid-high lvl fighters (base thac0 15, +1/2 from STR and +1/2 from enchanted weapon) would find quite difficult to hit well equipped grunts (full plate, or even plate + medium shield, without counting DEX), with more or less a 50% chance to miss. Considering that hitting their opponents is almost the only thing they do, it kinda ruins that class imo when compared to other classes, especially considering such change would make the difference in thac0 between fighters and other classes almost irrelevant.

I'm indeed sympathetic to the whole "epic fighters almost always hit even without kensai's bonuses", and even more to David's inability to use AC buffs as an effective defensive option, but a 50% nerf to thac0 seems kinda drastic to me (while I obviously agree the such called "unnerfed" tables for L20+ are really unbalancing).

If you ask me I'd prefer to improve opponents AC (e.g. making them use IR's potions, assigning better equipment or stats, etc) and to improve some buffs (e.g. making armor spells much better) rather than removing from fighters one of their few defining advantages.

Last but not least, this change would make a properly equipped and/or buffed PC character almost invulnerable to AI grunts and their crappy thac0. Now that I think about it, this could be the worst problem in terms of balance.

Changing the nerf from 50% to 25% (e.g. fighters goes up to thac0 5, rogues to 10 and mages to 15) would make the change less dramatic and more balanced, no? But then there's the whole "this is a HUGE change" to PnP rules everyone is accustomed to. ???

Edited by Demivrgvs, 11 February 2011 - 09:12 AM.


#3 Ardanis

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:22 AM

Between boosting AC or nerfing thaco, the first is more like mending the consequence, than rooting the problem out. I'd also say that the first is more PnP breaking.

I find it quite reasonable that a fully equipped grunt is highly resistant against physical attacks. That was their purpose in the first place, to tank. Not to mention, that initially the chance to hit is exacly 50%.

I wouldn't mind to have insufficient thaco sometimes. In fact it has almost never been a case when I'd need to boost thaco. And game already provides enough ways to do so - a number of warrior-only combat potions, Bless/Aid/Chant spells, etc.

In regards of AI, I think monsters should remain intact, and humanoids in SCS often drink combat potions, cast Chant/Bless, use Critical Strike.
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#4 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:15 AM

I would suggest that we lower the thac0 at higher levels, something like 12-15 to 25 with half, and then 1/4 from there... yes this system actually goes over the 0 limit at higher levels, but that a bonus of super high levels.
One thing also, the Fighters(not Ranger or paladins etc.) should actually start with +1 bonus already.
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#5 the bigg

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:06 AM

I'd say the system is fine as it is now: worse thac0 would in practice lead to more boring battles - it takes longer to resolve one because you have worse DPS, while you are put at an even lesser risk than before since mobs won't be able to scratch an AC-based tank.

Besides, CS isn't useless even now - a dual-wielder with Specialization gets 7 attacks per round if under Improved Haste (8~10 ApR if using Belm and/or Grandmaster), which means that you benefit from the ancillary benefits of IH (you move faster and regenerate faster) and have better overall DPS (mobs often don't have helmets, bosses have a good enough AC to even out 7 automatic attacks vs. 10 attacks where you have to roll to-hit).
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#6 yarpen

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:13 PM

And do you really want to nerf fighters?

#7 Ardanis

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:50 PM

worse thac0 would in practice lead to more boring battles - it takes longer to resolve one because you have worse DPS, while you are put at an even lesser risk than before since mobs won't be able to scratch an AC-based tank.

It lowers the cost of a tactical mistake.
Plus, I'd love to see trolls' regeneration as something to account for, not just a 10-20 hp boost.

And do you really want to nerf fighters?

Looking at the statistics in character's info page, I see that overwhelming percentage of kills belongs to Korgan, not Edwin. I'm not sure who needs nerfing ???


PS And the appeal of summons goes higher. Fighters are generally bored in wizard duels, and if they mob even SR's fiends/celestials, those go down pretty quickly.


PPS In regards of AI grunts, you do know that 90% of times they're unable to hit due to the lack of proficiency with the weapon they're using?

Edited by Ardanis, 11 February 2011 - 06:15 PM.

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#8 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 01:57 AM

Looking at the statistics in character's info page, I see that overwhelming percentage of kills belongs to Korgan, not Edwin. I'm not sure who needs nerfing ???

Edwin is a Conjurer, not a Invoker, and thus he doesn't need to kill things himself to get them killed,as his summons can kill everything he needs killed... and nerfing the Thac0 table effects just the Player Characters and Non Player Characters that have joined the group and thus level up, not the monsters as they don't have a Thac0 table...
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#9 the bigg

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 04:53 AM

Looking at the statistics in character's info page, I see that overwhelming percentage of kills belongs to Korgan, not Edwin. I'm not sure who needs nerfing ???

That's a pretty reductive way to calculate effectiveness, isn't it? :D

PPS In regards of AI grunts, you do know that 90% of times they're unable to hit due to the lack of proficiency with the weapon they're using?

Isn't that like a -2 to thac0? Giving them ** and worsening thac0 tables would make their hit chances even worse (although this could be or not be counterbalanced by the extra attacks per round).
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#10 yarpen

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 05:50 AM

Still, you're using Edwin to tear down simple protections like Stoneskin/Mirror Image. Don't mention fact that even god-like ThaC0 cannot help you when someone's casting Protection from Magic Weapon.

#11 Ardanis

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 06:50 AM

and nerfing the Thac0 table effects just the Player Characters and Non Player Characters that have joined the group and thus level up, not the monsters as they don't have a Thac0 table...

Adjusting their thaco is a matter of several code lines.

That's a pretty reductive way to calculate effectiveness, isn't it?

I know. But it reflects the reality nonetheless, because I simply don't really need a wizard for anything short of dispelling enemy protections and casting Imp Haste.

A hasted fighter who drank a Giant Strength potion is no longer a melee grunt tasked with guarding a caster - it's a terminator that brings down a dragon in several rounds. Why else would SCS otherwise boost creatures' HPs? Certainly not because of triple sequencers loaded with damage spells.
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#12 chabba990

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:29 AM

http://9zyxog.bay.li...OTAB.jpg?psid=1

So imo the Thac0 progression would be something like this. The most importan things are: basicalliy it is divided to warrior, priest, rogue, and spellcaster progression. The fighter (and hard codedly the barbarian) would receive 1 thac0 for every level, so to say their thac0 is equal with their level, even at 1st level.

Paladins, rangers, and monks should receive at every even numbered level, which is still good, but not completely dumb as in the original game, where it is equal for all warriors... And yeah the monk: they are priests, but without weapons, and specializations, and so on, they would have no chance to hit anyone. Thats why I intend to give them the same attack bonus like that of a paladin for instance.

Priest should receive 1 thac0 for every 3 levels, starting at 3rd level. This is also true to druids, as I don't see the reason why to cripple them (even with their good shapeshifting skills). A cleric is not better in the sense that 'they can hit better' but because of their equipment: better selection of weapons, and earlier, ability to wear even heavy armors, and large shields... etc...

Rouges, the thief and bard respectively, would have a similar progression like priests (1 thac0 for every 3 levels), but they should start gaining it earlier, which is cool. Thieves have the powerful backstab and cneak attack anyway, so it still good to somehow not overpower them with god-like thac0 too.

And finally the spellcasters, whom should really be unable to hit effectively. First and foremost because of their specialization in magic, and because some of their most powerful touch spells shouldn't be so easy to deliver.... They should gain only 1 thac0 for every 4 levels.

Finally, the maximum level for me is always 20. After it everybody slowes down to 25% of their earlier progression rate. This is reasonable I think, because at higher levels the enemy armor won't really become better (like after full plate +2 what else an enemy can wear??)

Ahh yeah and the table contains hypothetically level 40 for everyone... but obviously I would handicap SOME of the classes earlier, because of the XP cap... but save this for another topic. ;)

Cheers

Edited by chabba990, 20 May 2011 - 05:51 AM.


#13 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 07:32 AM

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That' table is poorly done, well first of all the fighters levels mean nothing for the multi classed characters do they ;)
As the base of the level up system for the game is that when a character gains a level they get set bonuses... and as the base setting class for the Fighter multi classes is the Fighter, not the mage, they need to have the Fighters table in use. As only the fighters level counts towards the thac0 progression.
Now, the Warriors in BG2 have all the same table, +1 to thac0 per level, I agree that the Fighters should gain a +1 to that compared to the other warrior classes, but no more, nor less compared to them. Do you even realize how much the +10 Thac0 really is, it's half the amount of hits in the d20 system. There is no equipment in the world that can give them that much bonus... and the Paladins and Rangers gain levels slower.
The Clerics and Druids gained the 2/3 to thac0 per level, and that was fine, as they are half tank warriors anyway, in the soaking up the damage.
The Thieves had 1/2 of the thac0 per level, which is smaller than one might want it to be, but they have other means to create damage and not get hit than just armor.
The Mages had 1/3 the thac0 bonus per level and that seems to work.
So I would suggest to go back and rething about the table a bit more.
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#14 chabba990

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 12:11 PM

Okay Jarno, I take the point. You are right in many of your states, but I forgot to say that more things should be modified. And this is the AC.... In the vanilla game the minimum AC you can do is about -14 or something, but the REAL minimum is -24. I would like to modify a lot of items, basically armors, and shield and so on... to give more AC bonus. So you have to think about it in THAT point of view.

However, I don't know if I unerstood you well? Are you suggesting to give the SAME table to multi classed figthers like that of a normal fighter? I completely disagree. Vanilla fighter must remain the most powerful in the sence if hitting someone... Or if you mean that this is a hard coded thing, that they gain the base classes' thac0, than it is worth not mentioning.

"Now, the Warriors in BG2 have all the same table, +1 to thac0 per level, I agree that the Fighters should gain a +1 to that compared to the other warrior classes, but no more, nor less compared to them. Do you even realize how much the +10 Thac0 really is, it's half the amount of hits in the d20 system. There is no equipment in the world that can give them that much bonus... and the Paladins and Rangers gain levels slower. "

This one I don't really understood. So how you would like to implement this. In my table fighters have 1 thac0 per level, unlike the other warriors. Isn't that good do you think?

Thanks for your reply. ;)

#15 Guest_Guest_Aranthys_*_*

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:20 PM

I strongly disagree with the suggestion of altering thaco progression.
It's one of the core rules of AD&D.

Fighter get a max Thaco of 0
Thieves 10
Divines 7
Wizard 13

Thieves, divine, wizards have a lit of uility.
Fighters are combat powerhouse if supported.
That's the way it is.
Low AC is something like :
Naked AC : +10
Dex 18 : -4
Fullplate +3 : -12
Shield +3 : -4
That's -10

A fighter with the same equip has :
Base thaco @lvl 21 : 0
Longsword +3 : -3
Strength 18/00 : -2
That's -5. They hit 75% of the time.

Now, there's a lot of offensive buffs and you can indeed attain thaco of -10/-12 with str 25 / +5 weapon / buffs but remember, in DnD, fighters are supposed to hit. A lot.

If you want to nerf fighters, nerf improved haste instead, tht grants them 2-4 attacks per round for 1-3mn .



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