14 replies to this topic

[Ardanis]

Unarmed Damage
1st - 1d6
4th - 1d8
8th - 1d10
12th - 2d6
16th - 2d8
20th - 2d10

Fist Enchantment
4th - +0
9th - +1
13th - +2 // I've played S&F, waiting for 16th's adamantine was like a hell
18th - +3
35th - +4

Immunities
Still Mind (3): +2 saves vs spells
Purity of Body (5): immunity to disease
Diamond Body (11): immunity to poison, 100% poison res
Diamond Soul (13): MR 10+lvl
Perfect Self (20): immunity to normal weapons

Also
Slow Fall (4): maybe immunity to slow
Evasion (9): immunity to spells is better left for HLA, so +2 saves vs breath
Timeless Body (17): immunity to level drain, but I have doubts


Other
Thaco - as that of a priest // or is it already so? I can't check, it CTDs at new game start
AC bonus - 1/5 lvl // if we agree on this, I'll try to beseach A64 to remove hardcoded bonuses to base and vs missiles
ApR - 1+1/3 lvl, as per vanilla


Special Abilities
Flurry of Blows (1):
For 2 rounds gives +1 ApR and -2 thaco penalty. Usable at will, refresing itself on use.

I suppose it's doable to lower hardcoded ApR bonus and make Flurry eventually grant +2 ApR as per PnP. But then everybody would want to keep it on constantly as the best ability ever, and after playing KotOR 1&2 I can testify that recasting +2 ApR every 20 seconds is beyond annoying.

Stunning Fist (1):
For 1 round all attacks stun (save vs death, -1 penalty for every 4 levels) for 1 round. Extra uses every 8 levels, up to 5 at 33th.

Deflect Arrows (2):
Immunity to missiles, -1 ApR, duration is 2+1/5 lvl. 1/day.

Trip (6):
Targeted attack, as I think it should be difficult to perform onto insivible opponent. Target must save vs death or fall unconscious for 1 round. Large creatures may not be tripped. Usable at will, refreshing itself on use.

Wholeness of Body (7):
As per vanilla, 2hp/lvl healed, 1/day.

Abundant Step (12):
Dimension Door - instant, no LOS required, range 15+5/4 lvl. 1/day.

Quivering Palm (15):
I'd much rather use Death Attack sectype of Assassin's ability - effect's the same, so can be name then. Target must save vs death (-1 penalty for every 4 levels) or die. 1/day.

Empty Body (19):
Etherealness for 1 round/lvl. 1/day.

Now that I think of it, shouldn't Etherealness be more like Sanctuary, removable at will?


HLA
Coming tomorrow. Well, today actually...

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DEFLECT ARROWS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted.
Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.
Special: A monk may select Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at 2nd level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus feats.

IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

STUNNING FIST [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned character can’t act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.
A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feats.

PS Edited -1 ApR for Deflect Arrows.

Edited by Ardanis, 31 December 2010 - 03:41 AM.

[Dermit]

At a glance it looks good, I'm surprised Monks hadn't been gone over yet.

[Ardanis]

HLA
Infinite Deflection
Extra 1/day use of Deflect Arrows.

Exceptional Deflection
Deflect Arrows now affects magical missiles and rays as well.

Would including beholder rays be too evil? I suspect yes...

Reflect Arrows
Deflect Arrows now reflect missiles back upon the attacker.

I think this, as well as Exceptional Deflection, can be implemented via layered shell system, to avoid scripting.

Fast Healing:
Regeneration 1hp/round. 5 times.

Epic Speed:
Movement speed +2. 5 times.

Blinding Speed:
Improved Haste, 4 rounds.

Improved Magic Resistance:
+5% MR, 5 times.

Self-Concealment:
-2 thaco penalty for attackers (via split AC bonus vs types). 5 times.

Epic Prowess:
+1 thaco, 5 times.

Keen Strike:
+5% crit chance.

Righteous Strike:
+2d6 damage vs chaotic alignment.

Evasion:
Immunity to breath weapons and similar spells. As per rogue's version.

Stunning Fist:
Extra use of the ability.

Abundant Step:
Extra use of the ability. 5 times.

Blind-Fight:
Character can detect-invis-via-script.

Improved Stunning Fist:
+2 bonus on save difficulty.

Or just skip it and be content with the innate growing bonus.

Vorpal Strike:
Vorpal effect, 5% and -6 save penalty.

It probably is a bit too strong, though. Since it apparently is gonna have to work on bludgeoning fist attack, not slashing mode (which is poorly implementable and rather pointless), it can be less effective than true vorpal, like lowering save penalty to -2.

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EXCEPTIONAL DEFLECTION [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 21, Wis 19, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: The character can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.

INFINITE DEFLECTION [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: The character may perform any number of deflections each round, as the Deflect Arrows feat.

REFLECT ARROWS [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When the character deflects an arrow or other ranged attack, the attack is reflected back upon the attacker at the character’s base ranged attack bonus.

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BLIND-FIGHT [GENERAL]
Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.
You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half.
Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.
Special: The Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell.
A fighter may select Blind-Fight as one of his fighter bonus feats.

BLINDING SPEED [EPIC]
Prerequisite: Dex 25.
Benefit: The character can act as if hasted for 5 rounds each day. The duration of the effect need not be consecutive rounds. Activating this power is a free action.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time he or she takes the feat, it grants an additional 5 rounds of haste per day.

EPIC SPEED [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 21, Run.
Benefit: The character’s speed increases by 30 feet. This benefit does not stack with increased speed granted by magic items or nonpermanent magical effects.
Special: This feat only functions when the character is wearing medium armor, light armor, or no armor.

FAST HEALING [EPIC]
Prerequisite: Con 25.
Benefit: The character gains fast healing 3, or the character’s existing fast healing increases by 3. This feat does not stack with fast healing granted by magic items or nonpermanent magical effects.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

IMPROVED SPELL RESISTANCE [EPIC]
Prerequisite: Must have spell resistance from a feat, class feature, or other permanent effect.
Benefit: The character’s spell resistance increases by +2.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

SELF-CONCEALMENT [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 30, Hide 30 ranks, Tumble 30 ranks, improved evasion.
Benefit: Attacks against the character have a 10% miss chance, similar to the effect of concealment. The character loses this benefit whenever he or she would lose his or her Dexterity bonus to AC.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the miss chance increases by 10% to a maximum of 50% after it has been taken five times.

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EPIC PROWESS [EPIC]
Benefit: Gain a +1 bonus on all attacks.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

IMPROVED STUNNING FIST [EPIC]
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.
Benefit: Add +2 to the DC of the character’s stunning attack.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

KEEN STRIKE [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Str 23, Wis 23, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning fist, ki strike (adamantine).
Benefit: The character’s unarmed strike has a critical threat range of 18-20 and deals slashing damage (at the character’s option any attack can deal bludgeoning damage, but cannot then take advantage of the enhanced threat range). This ability doesn’t stack with other abilities that expand that character’s unarmed strike’s threat range.

RIGHTEOUS STRIKE [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, any lawful alignment.
Benefit: The character’s unarmed strike is treated as an axiomatic weapon (it is lawfully aligned and deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against creatures of chaotic alignment). This ability doesn’t stack with similar abilities.

VORPAL STRIKE [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Str 25, Wis 25, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Keen Strike, Stunning Fist, ki strike (adamantine).
Benefit: The character’s unarmed strike is considered to be a slashing vorpal weapon. (At the character’s option, any unarmed strike can do bludgeoning damage instead, but it loses the vorpal quality.) This ability doesn’t stack with similar abilities

[J Beau]

Going from +2 to +3 fists, you have to advance 5 levels.

Going from +3 to +4 fists, you have to advance 17 levels!!!

Maybe level 25 instead of 35. I know Monks can use other weapons, but their bread and butter is their fists. A monk fighting a demilich with a sword is just wrong.

[Demivrgvs]

I'll try to catch up, sorry but I've been incredibly messed up due to RL and I missed many posts like this.

First of all, I have to say this class is the one I like the least, because it doesn't fit so well this setting imo and I would have probably left it for last because of its hardcoded limitations. Anyway...

Ardanis, on Dec 31 2010, 02:55 AM, said:

Unarmed Damage
1st - 1d6
4th - 1d8
8th - 1d10
12th - 2d6
16th - 2d8
20th - 2d10

This seems fine.

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Fist Enchantment
4th - +0
9th - +1
13th - +2 // I've played S&F, waiting for 16th's adamantine was like a hell
18th - +3
35th - +4

I don't get a few things here. At 4th lvl fists are magical but +0? I don't like it (there aren't +0 magical weapons), is it just me? Personally I'd say that as soon as they are considered magical they should be considered +1. Regarding the table I have't "studied" it much, but :
- in PnP (note that there are no AD&D monks) monk's fists are considered magical at 4th lvl, and within such rules that would ideally cover any +x enchantment, but ported into AD&D I'd say +1 is ok;
- at 10th they are considered "lawful", but within AD&D this means absolutely nothing, thus we may as well consider this the +2 step;
- at 16th lvl they are considered "adamantine", which means they can hit and damage creatures like golems, this is easily translated into a +3 within AD&D/BG rules.
Now, 4-10-16 isn't very linear and we may as well use 6-12-18, but I'd have to think about it a little more. In general, I'd say monk's fists should be as enchanted as weapons that a fighter of similar lvl is expected to find.

Edit: I forgot the whole +4 at 35th lvl thing. If you ask me it's not necessary, but considering how I intend to handle the whole 20+ lvls the last upgrade to fists could be done via HLA.

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Immunities
Still Mind (3): +2 saves vs spells
Purity of Body (5): immunity to disease
Diamond Body (11): immunity to poison, 100% poison res
Diamond Soul (13): MR 10+lvl
Perfect Self (20): immunity to normal weapons

Also
Slow Fall (4): maybe immunity to slow
Evasion (9): immunity to spells is better left for HLA, so +2 saves vs breath
Timeless Body (17): immunity to level drain, but I have doubts

More or less fine, I have few doubts, but the most crucial is the one regarding monk's magic resistance. I never really liked the concept behind it because improved saves reflect much better monk's superior mind and body than mr, which seems a supernatural feature. Anyway, giving for granted mr has to saty, monk's mr shouldn't outshine Wizard Slayer's one imo.

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Other
Thaco - as that of a priest // or is it already so? I can't check, it CTDs at new game start
AC bonus - 1/5 lvl // if we agree on this, I'll try to beseach A64 to remove hardcoded bonuses to base and vs missiles
ApR - 1+1/3 lvl, as per vanilla

Thac0: monks currently use fighter's table! It surprised me considering the only time I used a monk he seemed to miss a lot of attacks till mid-high lvls. Considering his superior apr (vanilla's one seems fine) I'd say priest's table should be more balanced on paper (in fact PnP Monk follows it), but it may need in-game tests.

AC: this is what annoies me the most. The hardcoded progression is really broken imo (too fast), but is somewhat balanced by another thing that upsets me, it doesn't work with other sources of AC like Bracers of Armor (unlike PnP). Unless A64 can do something about it there's little we can do, if he does, than yes I agree with +1 every 5 lvls. It would also be great to have WIS AC work, but it's not crucial imo.

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Flurry of Blows (1):
For 2 rounds gives +1 ApR and -2 thaco penalty. Usable at will, refresing itself on use.

I suppose it's doable to lower hardcoded ApR bonus and make Flurry eventually grant +2 ApR as per PnP. But then everybody would want to keep it on constantly as the best ability ever, and after playing KotOR 1&2 I can testify that recasting +2 ApR every 20 seconds is beyond annoying.

Is this really needed? I know it has some use (like fighter's stances we discussed), but I can also live with monks having high apr and lower thac0 by default, don't you?

Everything else seems more or less fine.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 24 February 2011 - 05:24 AM.

[Ardanis]

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In general, I'd say monk's fists should be as enchanted as weapons that a fighter of similar lvl is expected to find.

Agreed, but what would be the point of ever equipping a weapon then?

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Edit: I forgot the whole +4 at 35th lvl thing. If you ask me it's not necessary, but considering how I intend to handle the whole 20+ lvls the last upgrade to fists could be done via HLA.

Unsurprisingly, that was my first thought, but is it doable? Fist/level table is hardcoded into exe, only using magical weapon slot could work, and not pretty imo.

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I never really liked the concept behind it because improved saves reflect much better monk's superior mind and body than mr, which seems a supernatural feature.

I think it's a part of the development into Outsider by 20th level.

Flurry of Blows

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Is this really needed? I know it has some use (like fighter's stances we discussed), but I can also live with monks having high apr and lower thac0 by default, don't you?

Well, it's their class ability by PnP.
Otherwise, I do think a monk can have 2 apr right from the start.

[Demivrgvs]

Ardanis, on Feb 25 2011, 01:09 AM, said:

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In general, I'd say monk's fists should be as enchanted as weapons that a fighter of similar lvl is expected to find.

Agreed, but what would be the point of ever equipping a weapon then?

Well, the only time I used this class I think I never equipped any weapon at all, and I'm not even sure any weapon fits this class much (conceptually the most appropriate weapon would be the staff imo, and ironically it can't be used).

The only reasons to equip a weapon imo are ranged combat (darts fit the class pretty well) and to have a different dmg type (though crushing dmg generally is the best one in most circumstances).

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Edit: I forgot the whole +4 at 35th lvl thing. If you ask me it's not necessary, but considering how I intend to handle the whole 20+ lvls the last upgrade to fists could be done via HLA.

Unsurprisingly, that was my first thought, but is it doable? Fist/level table is hardcoded into exe, only using magical weapon slot could work, and not pretty imo.

Sorry, I was assuming we were asking A64 to remove all the restrictive hardcoded things (fists, AC, etc.), but even in that case I don't know how we could handle this without using the magical weapon slot, which we can't use (we could make it not dispellable but it would still block other weapons). It seems like we have to stick either with max +3, or put the +4 at 20th lvl.

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I never really liked the concept behind it because improved saves reflect much better monk's superior mind and body than mr, which seems a supernatural feature.

I think it's a part of the development into Outsider by 20th level.

Point taken, it's probably me seeing the monk as a pure martial artist (Shaolin Monk) rather than a mystical semi-magical being, but PnP Monk is full of magical abilities (probably even Lay on Hands hints to that).

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Is Flurry of Blows really needed? I know it has some use (like fighter's stances we discussed), but I can also live with monks having high apr and lower thac0 by default, don't you?

Well, it's their class ability by PnP.
Otherwise, I do think a monk can have 2 apr right from the start.

Yep, I'm just saying it's a poor design option imo. Unless the thac0 penalty is considerable (e.g. 4 points) I'd simply keep the +1 apr for the entire game (as you noticed yourself), recasting the ability over and over till it becomes an annoying "must do routine". Granting Monks superior apr rate by default is more than enough imo, this ability wouldn't add much to the gamplay and is actually redundant imo (unlike Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm). No?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 25 February 2011 - 06:25 AM.

[the bigg]

some notes:

for fists, you can create an undroppable, undestroyable 'fist' token weapon in slot 1 (and make the 'native' fist undesirable by significatively weakening the item). This also allows you to tweak the fist ApR via softcode.

for AC, you can simply use effects to worsen AC at 2, 4, 6... to softcode- transform the hardcoded progression in the desire done (although it's not the best solution, since it'll stack improperly with bracers and whatnot).

[phordicus]

Demivrgvs, on Feb 25 2011, 07:05 AM, said:

The only reasons to equip a weapon imo are ranged combat (darts fit the class pretty well) and to have a different dmg type (though crushing dmg generally is the best one in most circumstances).

make some monk-only shuriken

[J Beau]

I could live with +4 fists as an HLA, but if its not possible then I vote for granting it in the level 20-25 range. There are no core NPC monks, so it was designed for the main character. Having a main character not being able to hit every creature in the game is less than desirable. You are supposed to be the hero after all.

[Demivrgvs]

the bigg, on Feb 25 2011, 03:12 PM, said:

for fists, you can create an undroppable, undestroyable 'fist' token weapon in slot 1 (and make the 'native' fist undesirable by significatively weakening the item). This also allows you to tweak the fist ApR via softcode.

A viable solution indeed, but it may be confusing for some players (one "fist icon" is right, the other ones not?) and if possible I'd like to avoid solutions that may arise complaints from some players.

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for AC, you can simply use effects to worsen AC at 2, 4, 6... to softcode- transform the hardcoded progression in the desire done (although it's not the best solution, since it'll stack improperly with bracers and whatnot).

I know, this is probably how S&F handled it, but it's far from being a true solution (as you say yourself), and having bracers work for monks is really a must have imo.

J Beau, on Feb 26 2011, 11:30 AM, said:

I could live with +4 fists as an HLA, but if its not possible then I vote for granting it in the level 20-25 range. There are no core NPC monks, so it was designed for the main character. Having a main character not being able to hit every creature in the game is less than desirable. You are supposed to be the hero after all.

I can probably agree (though +4 is needed only for 2-3 opponents in the entire game). In general this class really don't fit this setting imo, but it actually suits charname quite well instead (a powerful being with outstanding innate resistances/immunities who can destroy his opponents with bare hands - doesn't it sound semi-god enough? ).

[SixOfSpades]

I have my own (overly grandiose) plans for the Monk, but the changes are so radical I won't bore you with them here. I'll summarize the core of my discontent with the default Monk in one sentence:

What kind of Monk are you playing?

[Reverendratbastard]

Demivrgvs, on 24 February 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:

First of all, I have to say this class is the one I like the least, because it doesn't fit so well this setting imo

Candlekeep is essentially a monastery (there's certainly nothing more like one in Amn, let alone the Sword Coast - okay, maybe Watcher's Keep)...

[Azazello]

Demivrgvs, on 28 February 2011 - 04:02 AM, said:

the bigg, on Feb 25 2011, 03:12 PM, said:

for fists, you can create an undroppable, undestroyable 'fist' token weapon in slot 1 (and make the 'native' fist undesirable by significatively weakening the item). This also allows you to tweak the fist ApR via softcode.

A viable solution indeed, but it may be confusing for some players (one "fist icon" is right, the other ones not?) and if possible I'd like to avoid solutions that may arise complaints from some players.

This would be a kit revision - kinda hard for players to complain when they installed the mod to change the kit. It would be like players complaining about spell changes when they installed Spell Revisions.

I'm wondering if this leads to an idea I had about getting around the 2-handed limit...
(I got this idea based on another mod that created a totemic stick or club that allow the player to transform into a werewolf--which mod is that?)

If I'm understanding correctly, the monk fist is actually 1 item -- MFIST<#>
This is not considered a 2-handed weapon is it?
Essentially because it's un-equipable, it's preventing the use of 2-handed weapons.

So, how about this...

Convert monk's fist(s) into normal weapons (disable/neutralize MFIST<#>)...
Create removable, equipable bracers (braces?) that simulate the magical bonus advancement...
The braces would count as 2-handed weapon.
Let's be nice and make the bracers usable only by monks.
Sort-of Ken/Ryu, but what the hell...

This would allow monks to use 2-handed weapons - plus, pummel opponents without killing them.

Doable?

Edited by Azazello, 12 February 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Ardanis]

Monks don't have a normal two-handed attack animation, it is used by MFIST attack - that punching/kicking. Interestingly, iirc they do have dual-wielding attack animation, but then they can't equip an offhand weapon due to MFISTs being two-handed.

Long story short, a while ago I did have devoted some time to solving this problem, and came up with nothing, short of changing monk's animation to a priest or whatever else.