18 replies to this topic

[yarpen]

Hello everyone. I hope that I'm not spamming forum with stupid ideas, I think that maybe we can create creative discussion about Specialist Wizards. In my humble opinion in BG2 they are extremaly under-developed. Besides their mechanical aspect of having +1 spell per level and excluding one spells school, there is nothing interesting about them. There is no way in game to see that you're really playin as Necromancer or Illusionist, those are just mere, mere character options. Why not to expand their in-game concept a bit? I've found Complete Necromancer's Book which grants a lot of interesting options for Necromancer - I think that using this as basic template we can expand some of these ideas to other specialists.

My basic idea was to grant to every Specialist Wizard two abilities. One at 1st level, 2nd at 10th level. (but could be shifted to 5th and 10th level, because some of those abilities aren't granting anything for some wizards).

So, for example:

Necromancer
- At 5th level: any ally Undead creature gains +1 bonus to Attack rolls, Saving Throws and +8 Hit Points. It also become immune to Turn Undead ability.
- At 10th level: every enemy in 5' radius from Necromancer gains -2 penalty to Saving Throws vs. Death

Other ideas:
- Immunity to disease (and poisons): Necromancers usually hang around graves, tombs and undead creatures. That's quite a good reason to make them immune to diseases.
- Augmented Hit Points (+1 Hit Point per level): minor bonus, presented in Handbook of Necromancers. Necromancers are learning how to cheat death and make their life longer. That's one way of reflecting it. Minor regeneration would also be fine. (1 Hit Point per Turn).
- Chilling Touch: nice thing for higher levels. In Handbook of Necromancers, they have possibility of using this spell at higher levels at-will or just as Innate Ability.

Abjurer
- Banish: ability to un-summon creatures which won't make saving throw against wands.
- Saving Throw/AC bonus: because those wizards are specialists in defense.

Conjurers
- Augmented Summons: +1 bonus to Attack Rolls, Damage, AC and +8 HP bonus for summoned creatures. Close to rising their level by 1.
- Loyal Summons: more of an role-playing add-on than in-game ability. Summons become immune to Charm and Fear effects.
- Instant Summoning: reduction of Monster Summoning spells casting time to 1. Very powerfull ability, would also need to create custom spells and automatically add those to him.

Transmuters
- Form stability: immunity to polymorphy/petrification. At first sight very powerfull ability... but who uses those spells?

Invokers
- Reducing of Magic Damage Resistance of enemies by 10%/20% in 5' radius around spellcaster.
- Gaining Magic Damage Resistance.

Diviners
- Gain 10 lore points per level.
- Special ability which makes him automatically success in any saving throw in next round. (quite powerfull ability, but this specialisation is highly under-used)
- (probably un-implementable) Possibility of knowing more details about enemies
- Tracking-like ability
- Immunity to Backstab

Illusionist
- (for Multiclass/Dual-class characters) +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows
- +1 bonus to Armor Class, additional +1 bonus vs. Missles
- Lesser Non-Detection usable once per day?

Enchanter
- +1 bonus to Charisma score
- -2 bonus to saves vs. spells for foes in 5' radius from Enchanter
- Immunity to Charm

Specialist Wizards additional hindrances
- Quite interesting disadvantage. Specialist Wizard cannot use items close to their forbidden school/schools. Necromancers who cannot use Invisibility Ring, Enchanters who don't want to touch Wand of Magic Missles, Transmuters who's jealous of his friend's Cloak of Cheese. These are only examples.
- In PnP most of Specialist Wizards have 2 restriced spells Schools

I hope that Demi and Company will find something interesting here or show their ideas (probably better and more balanced). Thanks for attention!

[Ardanis]

Quote

I hope that I'm not spamming forum with stupid ideas

Are you ever doing something else?

Some quick thoughts:

Necromancer
Augmented undead and HP bonus.

Abjurer
MR is better imo.

Conjurers

Quote

- Loyal Summons: more of an role-playing add-on than in-game ability. Summons become immune to Charm and Fear effects.

Rather I'd eliminate the possibility of summons going hostile on caster.

Quote

- Instant Summoning: reduction of Monster Summoning spells casting time to 1. Very powerfull ability, would also need to create custom spells and automatically add those to him.

Doable without serious hackery, but imo loyalty is enough.

Transmuters

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- Form stability: immunity to polymorphy/petrification. At first sight very powerfull ability... but who uses those spells?

Add Disintegrate.
Outside of SCS? Quite a number of people, although not that much indeed. But something better would be better.

Invokers

Quote

- Reducing of Magic Damage Resistance of enemies by 10%/20% in 5' radius around spellcaster.

Kinda weak and I'd take elemental res instead. Also lowering res is one good way for balance disaster. I don't remember if there was a working damage-increasing effect in BG2 - if there is, I'd take it instead.

Diviners
I'd go with lore bonus and permanent SR's Clairvoyance.

Illusionist
Only AC vs Missile looks good.

Enchanter
+2 CHA and charm imm should suffice.

[Pacek]

I like where this is heading, I always thought mage kits could do with a bit more fleshing out!
I wonder if it is possible to add a bonus to spell learning % for spells of your chosen school? I'm not a fan of of "100%" learning tweaks and think this would give more flavour.

Am looking forward to Kit revisions!

[Demivrgvs]

Well, discussing this wasn't really my priority (and I'll probably have to re-post everything in a new topic to be sure the following huge post is the first one, so that I can update it whenever we discuss and agree on something), but whatever...

I already had various things in mind, most inspired by 3rd edition Specialist Wizard Variants, and AD&D Complete Wizard's Handbook, but let's start with the global design.


Global Changes
We have quite a few global things to discuss:
1) templates
2) restricted schools
3) Find Familiar
4) HLAs


1) I'll discuss it later for each kit. The question is: "is there a template we could follow for all kits?" Probably not.
Two possible templates are:
a) a bunch of permanent effects plus a couple of custom innates like most BG kits
b) PnP specialists described in the PHB simply have school restrictions and they are simply "forced" to use tons of spells related to their school (see the following point).
c) unique features as per PnP Specialist Wizard Variants

b) The only way to do this is like I suggested to do for the revised cleric kits, granting them 1 spell per lvl via custom innate. The obvious "problem" with this is that each kit would end up with 9 innates just for this feature.

This is a rather crucial decision to make, because having those 9 innates or not is a huge difference when it comes to decide other possible features (e.g. immunities or powers).

Conceptually I really like this, but in terms of implementation I'm less sure because it kinda clashes with eventual custom innates. Perhaps some kits might have to follow this pattern like the Invoker while others are better off with a more BG-like template like Abjurers.

c) This is actually a variant of b) imo, I'll better explain it later for each kit, but the most outstanding example is Conjurer's Augmented Summons. It's neither a permanent bonus/immunity for the caster nor a custom innate, but "it takes their place".


2) Do we really want to go for PnP two prohibited schools instead of one? I'm not sure how much it's doable, and not much necessary if you accept my following suggestion.

One more thing I'd really like to do but I'm not sure of (is it doable? would it cause a mess?) is fixing a couple of absurd choices:
* Illusion's opposite school should be Divination not Necromancy (really, isn't that obvious?!?)
* Conjurer's opposite school should be Invocation not Divination
* why the hell Invokers are the only ones with two opposite schools?! Conjuration is enough imo, and Enchantment doesn't even look so "opposite"

Abjuration vs. Alteration is really fine instead (though Alteration vs. Enchantment makes sense too), while Necromancy vs Enchantment is not perfect (though undead being immune to all mind-affecting speels does ring a bell), but at least it makes more sense than Necromancy vs Illusion, and I cannot see a much better candidate to "oppose" Necromancy.


3) This is a neverending story, familiars would be uber cool to work on but I never found the time and will to work on them because they are very time consuming. Anyway, one thing that should b done imo is to make Find Familiar an innate ability, removing that sad scroll from game and the lame "memorize a spell you have to cast once in a lifetime" thing.


4) I won't discuss them much here, but as for the other KR kits they more or less continue the path set by the main BG-like template with few permanent passive HLAs and at least one powerful spell per kit. Refinements already do the latter, but as I discussed elsewhere, I think HLA spells (e.g. Dragon Breath) should be innates, and not use 9th lvl slots.

One thing I'm almost sure of is that I'll switch the current behaviour, True Mages will have 1 slot per level more than specialists. This is the only way to make sure the generalist mage remains very appealing on his own, and not outshined, not to mention it really improves the global rule I'd liket all True classes to share: VERSATILITY.

This way, specialists would already have some serious drawback with 1 restricted school and -1 spell slot per lvl, enough to justify their added features.


Abjurer
Well, I have two quite obvious ideas:
a) Greater Dispel (a la Inquisitor)
b) permanent Magic Resistance (a la WS, but probably less then them)

a) this is a must have imo, Abjurers should be able to dispel magic at least as effectively as Inquisitors imo. Unlike them Abjurers should probably use Remove Magic instead of Dispel Magic, or both.

b) PnP variant suggets Energy Resistance or permanent improved saves, but like Ardanis I think Magic Resistance would fit A LOT more.


Conjurer
a) Augmented Summons
b) Improved "Familiar"

a) Augmented Summons can be more or less what yarpen suggests. Creatures summoned by a Conjurer can be slightly more powerful adding them few additional bonuses via scripts. The problem is that such feature is only doable within SR, or patching any vanilla or mod added summon's AI scripts, and the latter might cause compatibility issues imo (e.g. a mess in the install order required for compatibility).

b) I think Conjurer's custom innate ability could be a sort of companion (perhaps replacing the familiar). A powerful summoned ally which becomes stronger with caster's lvl, or different creatures based on caster's lvl.

Ardanis, on Nov 11 2010, 08:34 AM, said:

yarpen, on Nov 11 2010, 06:58 AM, said:

Loyal Summons: more of an role-playing add-on than in-game ability. Summons become immune to Charm and Fear effects.

Rather I'd eliminate the possibility of summons going hostile on caster.

All SR summons except fiends are "loyal" in terms of allegiance. Making them immune to charm and fear could be part of the Augmented Summons feature, but it may "clash" with summons innate features (e.g. a summon may be already immune). I'd go with something more like PnP AS, a basic boost to stats, so that all summons can benefit from it the same way.

Ardanis, on Nov 11 2010, 08:34 AM, said:

yarpen, on Nov 11 2010, 06:58 AM, said:

Instant Summoning: reduction of Monster Summoning spells casting time to 1. Very powerfull ability, would also need to create custom spells and automatically add those to him.

Doable without serious hackery, but imo loyalty is enough.

Is it really doable? Anyway, I'm not so much interested.


Diviner
Here I have more problems. A good candidate for "permanent features" would be something similar to SR's Claivoyance, like Ardanis says. But at the same time I'd like it to not deprecate the few Divination spells a Diviner can use. Thus I'd probably limit it to something like AC bonus and save vs breath bonuses.

I've the same concern for an eventual custom innate, because the best candidate is pretty obvious, a True Seeing-like ability which improves with caster lvl (e.g. at 1st lvl you can't have more than a Detect Invisibility-like effect imo), but a full TS deprecates almost the entire Divination spellbook (well, SR adds a couple of different spells like Know Opponent and Clairvoyance, but not much more).

One permanent effect that could be really nasty imo is grant them "Invisible Detection by Script", which means letting them cast spells against improved invisible targets in their semi-invisible state.


Enchanters
Well, eventual permanent effects are pretty obvious here, improved saves vs spell and/or immunity to charm effects (though this deprecates IR's Staff of Command and its current lore ). A permanent Mind Shield like effect may be granted by immunities granted later on, perhaps via HLAs, but I'm not sure if I prefer the "immunity path" over the "save vs spells" one. Regarding charisma there already is the starting CHA requirement (right now is 16, but I don't mind raising it to 17), and I'm not sure I'd like all charname enchanters to go around with CHA 19-20...at the same time though that alone could be an incentive to play an Enchanter (aka a lot more gold)

His/her innate ability is pretty obvious, a charm/domination spell which improves with lvl and lasts longer than normal charm spells.


Evoker
This is a real pain to do. Its suggested PnP abilities are not implementable, and its a damn shame. Energy Substitution is not doable, Overcome Resistance is not doable (wll, it is, but only in a way which leads to serious balance issues as Ardanis says) and incresing the damage dealt by their invocations is not doable too within BG (I think it works only within PSTorment).

Elemental resistances may be ok, though it sounds more like a defensive abjuration-like feature.

The only solution I see is granting them a bunch of custom versions of their most powerful spells.


Illusionist
PnP would suggest hide in shadow bonus, and later on hide in plain sight, but the only way to simulate that is an innate spell, aka an Invisibility spell.

It could be interesting to completely re-think the suggested Shadow Shaper thing (which in PnP is the above hide in shadows ability), and grant to illusionist the ability to create illusionary versions of some spells as per PnP Shadow Conjuration/Evocation.


Necromancer
Here it's pretty easy instead to find possible things to do. Permanent features are very predictable, like save vs death bonus (as per PnP Undead Apotheosis), or immunities to various necromantic effects. As with the Enchanter I don't know which one is the best path to follow.

They should also be similar to Conjurers, with better undead summons, and PnP Skeletal Minion is cool too. Instead of a little familiar you have a skeleton guard which improves with caster's lvl.


Transmuter
Permanent effects are again kinda obvious, either following the "save vs polymorph" path or the "immunity" one. (P.S shouldn't spells like Slow use this save instead of save vs spell? )

PnP Enhance Attribute is more or less a variation of Draw Upon Divine Might, whereas I thought that a permanent bonus to physical stats, perhaps via HLAs would be more interesting.

Spell Versatility makes no sense imo, and Transmutable Memory is not really doable, unless we just make a Wondrous Recall like ability (which would just be like granting him more spell slots).

Edited by Demivrgvs, 11 November 2010 - 06:49 AM.

[Dermit]

If you do add any sort of special abilities to specialists I would be for giving them two restricted schools.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs, on Nov 11 2010, 04:23 PM, said:

6) ...
One thing I'm almost sure of is that I'll switch the current behaviour, True Mages will have 1 slot per level more than specialists. This is the only way to make sure the generalist mage remains very appealing on his own, and not outshined, not to mention it really improves the global rule I want all True classes to share, VERSATILITY.

This way, specialists would already have some serious drawback with 1 restricted school and -1 spell slot per lvl, enough to justify their added features.

More ? as in "Not less ?" Why the hell so, a dualed Priest/Mage has more spells than any EvokerInvoker that already lost the spell school. I can see a +1 to spell power, but not a +1 spell to all spell levels. I can understand a "+1 spell at level x to spell level y"(live example: the Mage gains a +1 first level spell at level 7, when other gain something else), but not a categorised +1 to each spell level at the first opportunity.

The restricted items can be taken care of in the Item Revision...

Dermit, on Nov 11 2010, 04:53 PM, said:

If you do add any sort of special abilities to specialists I would be for giving them two restricted schools.

And I am totally against restricting two schools, that's for the specializing specialist(AKA Red Wizard etc. kits). This is because the game rules don't fit to that well at all.

Demivrgvs, on Nov 11 2010, 04:23 PM, said:

Conjurer
...
b) Improved "Familiar"
...
b) I think Conjurer's custom innate ability could be a sort of companion (perhaps replacing the familiar). A powerful summoned ally which becomes stronger with caster's lvl, or different creatures based on caster's lvl.

Hmm, the familiar could have it's roots tied on the specialisation school. Necromancer gets something dead, Transmuter gets a wolf that evolves to be wolfwere... Invoker doesn't get one(opposite school ... ok, so a floating fireball is always an option of course ), Illusionist gets a rabbit(used as a thief or something)...
Enchanters gets an "animated sword".
Diviner gets an beholder-kin.
Abjurer gets a fay/fairy, a creature that has an permanent protection aura effect.

And Conjurer can choose which one of the other he takes each time he uses the ability(once per 8 hours of sleep), but the old one needs to be dead or dispelled... ouh yeah, and the familiars need to be dispel-able by their masters, and no one else.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 11 November 2010 - 07:52 AM.

[yarpen]

Quote

a) this is a must have imo, Abjurers should be able to dispel magic at least as effectively as Inquisitors imo. Unlike them Abjurers should probably use Remove Magic instead of Dispel Magic, or both.

You're right.

Quote

a) Augmented Summons can be more or less what yarpen suggests. Creatures summoned by a Conjurer can be slightly more powerful adding them few additional bonuses via scripts. The problem is that such feature is only doable within SR, or patching any vanilla or mod added summon's AI scripts, and the latter might cause compatibility issues imo (e.g. a mess in the install order required for compatibility).

Isn't it easier to do it via aura-like effect with .eff working only on allied summons?

Quote

One permanent effect that could be really nasty imo is grant them "Invisible Detection by Script", which means letting them cast spells against improved invisible targets in their semi-invisible state.

That is extremaly cool. ^^. I think it suits them a lot.

Quote

His/her innate ability is pretty obvious, a charm/domination spell which improves with lvl and lasts longer than normal charm spells.

Sounds good.

Quote

incresing the damage dealt by their invocations is not doable too within BG (I think it works only within PSTorment).

Probably IWD, not PS:T.

Quote

Are you ever doing something else?

Bawwwwww.

Additional suggestion: we can always limit Specialist Wizards's advantages to granting them some additional, unique spells. Arcane Remixes did that and had few interesting ideas (undead-buff spell for Necromancers, lesser Mislead for Illusionist).

[Demivrgvs]

Pacek, on Nov 11 2010, 11:31 AM, said:

I wonder if it is possible to add a bonus to spell learning % for spells of your chosen school? I'm not a fan of of "100%" learning tweaks and think this would give more flavour.

Well, with an absurd amount of work it would be partilally doable:
* put 100% chance to learn spells tweak
* then change all scrolls adding tons of different EFF files to determine the chance of learning it based on user's kit
But you'd lose the % chance based on INT.

Thus no, it's not really doable afaik.

Jarno Mikkola, on Nov 11 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

Demivrgvs, on Nov 11 2010, 04:23 PM, said:

6) ...One thing I'm almost sure of is that I'll switch the current behaviour, True Mages will have 1 slot per level more than specialists. This is the only way to make sure the generalist mage remains very appealing on his own, and not outshined, not to mention it really improves the global rule I want all True classes to share, VERSATILITY.

This way, specialists would already have some serious drawback with 1 restricted school and -1 spell slot per lvl, enough to justify their added features.

More ? as in "Not less ?" Why the hell so, a dualed Priest/Mage has more spells than any EvokerInvoker that already lost the spell school.

Well:
1) a Priest/Mage is not going to have more mage spells because being a multi he will be several levels behind compared to a specialized mage
2) The Specialist Wizard will have his innate abilities to make up for those spell slots. For example granting an Enchanter a once per day Domintaion-like effect for every 3 or 4 levels is like granting him those spell slots were he should put his charming spells. And his innate ability improves with levels too (e.g. starts as a Charm-like spell and improves into a Domination-like spell), thus a 9th lvl Enchanter might end up having 3-4/day Domination (which is somthing like three or four 5th lvl spells) and one 5th lvl spell slot whereas the True Mage would just have two 5th lvl slots and nothing else. Then, on top of it the Enchanter would either be highly resistant to mind-affecting spells, or immune to charm. Do you really think True Mages don't deserve to have at least that damn slot?!?

Anyway, as you probably noticed the whole thing is far from finished, and you kindly took the Evoker, which is the kit I explicitly said I'm most unsure of.

Jarno Mikkola, on Nov 11 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

The restricted items can be taken care of in the Item Revision...

If necessary, or if appropriate, sure.

Jarno Mikkola, on Nov 11 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

Dermit, on Nov 11 2010, 04:53 PM, said:

If you do add any sort of special abilities to specialists I would be for giving them two restricted schools.

And I am totally against restricting two schools, that's for the specializing specialist(AKA Red Wizard etc. kits). This is because the game rules don't fit to that well at all.

Actually, in PnP Specialist give up to 2 schools, and Red Wizards give up to 3 schools. That being said I'm with Jarno on this (strange indeed eh?) because:
* I don't know if we can make it work well within BG
* we don't have as many spells as in PnP and giving up to 2 schools may lead to an unplayable character
* I think one prohibited school is already a nasty disadvantage, and I prefer to remove their +1 spell per lvl instead to balance off their added special abilities (as I said, those abilities sort of work as added spell slot themselves)
* we'd probably create more inconsistencies with SCS AI (David assigns specializations to many mages, but he obviously can't take our added restriction into account - and I wouldn't ask him so much)


Familiars

Jarno Mikkola, on Nov 11 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

Hmm, the familiar could have it's roots tied on the specialisation school. Necromancer gets something dead, Transmuter gets a wolf that evolves to be wolfwere... Invoker doesn't get one(opposite school wink.gif ... ok, so a floating fireball is always an option of course lol.gif ), Illusionist gets a rabbit(used as a thief or something)... lol.gif
Enchanters gets an "animated sword".
Diviner gets an beholder-kin.
Abjurer gets a fay/fairy, a creature that has an permanent protection aura effect.

Diviners get a beholder? Anyway, feel free to work on that. I already have to work on 9 familiars (sooner or later), one for each alignment, and I really don't have the time to add to that tons of custom familiars tied to each kit. Not to mention I don't even like the concept.


Augmented Summons

yarpen, on Nov 11 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

Isn't it easier to do it via aura-like effect with .eff working only on allied summons?

Well, that's an interesting trick, but some effects cannot be done via aura-like effect (e.g. I can't raise target's hit points in a flawless way), conceptually it's quite strange (though players should ignore how the effect is done), and I'm not sure an aura like which affects the entire area is really user-friendly (can a projectile cover the entire area? or should I use "target everyone" plus a complicate shell system and EFF files?). Other than that it would indeed allow to easily improves summons, even mod added ones, without messing around with scripts (though messing with SR's scripts is really not a problem).

P.S Assuming SR is installed or making these kits part of SR would obviously make it very simple.


New Spells

yarpen, on Nov 11 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

Additional suggestion: we can always limit Specialist Wizards's advantages to granting them some additional, unique spells. Arcane Remixes did that and had few interesting ideas (undead-buff spell for Necromancers, lesser Mislead for Illusionist).

That would be much more difficult than you can imagine, because I would have to create tons of new spells instead of a bunch of innates that improves with caster lvl.

Furthermore it would not achive one truly important goal, making Specialist mages stand out as clearly belonging to a particular school. If I grant them tons of memorizable spells they can just as well ignore them, and you'd end up with the current broken system again, where a Conjurer can walk around with not a single conjuration memorized. With custom innates and permanent features tied to the specialization you're instead sure that such mage is going to be identifiable as a specialist mage.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 11 November 2010 - 08:25 AM.

[Ardanis]

Generalist
Do keep in mind that it will screw enemy mages' spellbooks. At best, let's just give him +1 bonus slot and not touch specialists.

Abjurer
1) MR
2) Greater Dispel. I wish they could cast vanilla dispels with better efficiency, but since even playing with force casting at specific level doesn't work for dispel, I suppose an innate will do too.

Hm, it reminds me the Staff of Magi. If Remove Magic contains a header for each level with designated dispel power, then casting it at 30th level is possible.

Conjurer
1) Augmented summons.
2) Not so sure about improved familiar. And with SR v4 in mind we'll have easier time bargaining with demons/wish genies. Yes, it means relying on another mod, but so what?

Diviner
1) Why not lore bonus? If you ask me, many classes have huge amount of it, rendering Identify near useless. Even within IR, albeit not to such a frightening degree.
Warrior - 0/lvl
Priest - 1/lvl
Thief & Wizard - 2/lvl
Bard - 4/lvl

Now, the 10/lvl becomes a real boost.

2) Seeing invis is more than fine.

Enchanter
1) Charm imm/+2 vs spells.
2) +2 CHA.

Evoker
1) Slight bonus to energy res.
2) I very very much would like to see them casting better invocation spells, almost to the point to start advocating the use of shells. Shit...

Illusionist
Huh?

Necromancer
1) Augmented undead, slightly better so than Conjurer's (non-turnable, Iron Bones, +1 hit die).
2) +1 hp/lvl.

Transmuter
1) Well, yes, either immunity or saves vs polymorph
2) See nothing wrong with Wondrous Recall. This kit must be really attractive to compensate the loss of indispensable protective spells.

Edited by Ardanis, 11 November 2010 - 08:36 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

True Mage

Ardanis, on Nov 11 2010, 05:32 PM, said:

Do keep in mind that it will screw enemy mages' spellbooks. At best, let's just give him +1 bonus slot and not touch specialists.

That's exactly what I planned to do (vanilla's +1 spell per level to specialists is hardcoded), at worst all AI generalists won't benefit from it (they'll simply remain identical to how they work now in a vanilla game or in a SCS install). Anyway, what could possibly screw enemy mages' spellbooks? Even drastic changes wouldn't affect them because their spell slots are based on the cre file, not built in-game.


Abjurer

Quote

Greater Dispel. I wish they could cast vanilla dispels with better efficiency, but since even playing with force casting at specific level doesn't work for dispel, I suppose an innate will do too.

Actually I think I'd prefer the innate anyway. At least it doesn't mean making a single 3rd lvl spell (which already is extremely effective for its lvl) more powerful to the point that's very overpowered to fill such low level slot.


Conjurer

Quote

Not so sure about improved familiar. And with SR v4 in mind we'll have easier time bargaining with demons/wish genies. Yes, it means relying on another mod, but so what?

Well, as I said it's not really a "familiar" but rather a powerful summon ability. We can for example treat it as a Monster Summoning spell which improves with caster lvl.


Diviner

Quote

Why not lore bonus? If you ask me, many classes have huge amount of it, rendering Identify near useless. Even within IR, albeit not to such a frightening degree.
Warrior - 0/lvl
Priest - 1/lvl
Thief & Wizard - 2/lvl
Bard - 4/lvl

Now, the 10/lvl becomes a real boost.

Warrior 0/lvl? I think IR's table is really fine, and I fear 10 lore points per lvl would quickly make identification pointless. Even within IR bards can pretty much identify everything quite easily.

That being said, a lore bonus for them is really fine yes, just not so higher than bards imo.


Evoker

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Slight bonus to energy res.

Well, if we don't mind the fact that Energy Resistance spells do not belong to this school fine...we may consider it as the Evoker's affinity with the elements is so great that he can partially manipulate and lessen incoming spells rather than absorbing them.

Obviously this would be a cheap way to make them appealing, especially because it would make quite easy to make such mage highly resistant if not immune with the help of a bunch of spells.

@Ardanis, I've an idea on this matter, but I'll speak my mind here only after discussing it a little with you.

Quote

I very very much would like to see them casting better invocation spells, almost to the point to start advocating the use of shells. Shit...

This too is somewhat included in the above mentioned idea. Anyway, would that be much different than granting them a bunch of innates like Freezing Cone of Cold (Cone of Cold with a slowing effect), Controlled Fireball (party-friendly fireball), or something like that?

P.S those are just quick random ideas for improved invocations, don't insult me if their concept sucks!


Necromancer

Quote

+1 hp/lvl.

Mmmm, I've to think about it.


Transmuter

Quote

See nothing wrong with Wondrous Recall. This kit must be really attractive to compensate the loss of indispensable protective spells.

I don't see nothing wrong, but what's the difference between granting them such innate and just granting them more spell slots?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 11 November 2010 - 09:26 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs, on Nov 11 2010, 06:05 PM, said:

Familiars

Jarno Mikkola, on Nov 11 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

Diviner gets an beholder-kin.

Diviners get a beholder? Anyway, feel free to work on that. I already have to work on 9 familiars (sooner or later), one for each alignment, and I really don't have the time to add to that tons of custom familiars tied to each kit. Not to mention I don't even like the concept.

Well, a beholder-kin is not just a beholder, but it also should include a flouting eye stalk(wizard eye, anyone), but then again they are invisible . So at level 1, it would be free wizard eye spell, with normal familiar properties(so area damage spells will kill it), until it becomes larger and visible Gauth, at some level and then it can cause damage...

Ardanis, on Nov 11 2010, 06:32 PM, said:

Diviner
1) Why not lore bonus? If you ask me, many classes have huge amount of it, rendering Identify near useless. Even within IR, albeit not to such a frightening degree.
Warrior - 0/lvl
Priest - 1/lvl
Thief & Wizard - 2/lvl
Bard - 4/lvl

The minimum is 1/lvl... but if you wish to go the other way, one can put the items have higher lore values, again in Item Revisions.

[Ardanis]

Diviner
Bards imo should NOT outclass a wizard who specializes in divination, it's just... silly.
Maybe not 10/level, but still enough to make Identify, indeed, not so needed in a party with Diviner protagonist.

Transmuter

Quote

I don't see nothing wrong, but what's the difference between granting them such innate and just granting them more spell slots?

It's better than a mere +1 spell slot, because allows for customization on the fly, without a need to rest. Like minor sorcerer.

[Demivrgvs]

Diviner

Ardanis, on Nov 11 2010, 06:51 PM, said:

Bards imo should NOT outclass a wizard who specializes in divination, it's just... silly.
Maybe not 10/level, but still enough to make Identify, indeed, not so needed in a party with Diviner protagonist.

I didn't said I had a problem with diviners being better than bards when it comes to lore, not at all. I just said I don't want the difference to be so drastic (you suggested 4 and 10 lore/lvl respctively!), else either bards can't identify if it's raining or diviners can identify the name you'll give to Aerie's baby before meeting her in the circus tent.


Transmuter

Quote

Quote

I don't see nothing wrong, but what's the difference between granting them such innate and just granting them more spell slots?

It's better than a mere +1 spell slot, because allows for customization on the fly, without a need to rest. Like minor sorcerer.

Ok, you have a point.

Speaking of Transmutable Memory, I've just noticed that within PnP (I can't post the link to the Specialist Wizard Variant source for some reason) a Transmuter with this ability gives up to his +1 spell per level...just to remind that the whole idea behind "specialists don't get +1 spell per lvl" is not so crazy.

[erik]

Some of the stock BG2 spells are supposed to be specialist-only, according to the Tome of Magic. I played around a bit with that idea long ago. (Necromancer-only Skull Trap, for example)

[Dakk]

Fun fact I was not aware of (and possibly no one, until Ascension64 reversed the engine), which could/should impact balancing of Generalist vs. Specialist Wizards:
"The LEARN_SPELL value is modified for mage specialists, with +15 for same school spells, and -15 for non-same school spells."

That is, if I understand correctly, that Specialists have a +/- 15 bonus and penalty when memorizing spells from scrolls!
SHS
G3

Edited by Dakk, 31 January 2011 - 03:57 PM.