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Opinions and suggestions for v7


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#1 Wisp

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 12:06 AM

It will be a while before version 7 sees the light of day. Consequently there's a large window of opportunity for suggestions and similar.
If you have something you'd like like to see included in Item Randomiser, don't hesitate to suggest it. I've got a pretty good track record when it comes to implementing suggestions.

I'm already planning on randomising potions, wands and ammunition, and if I can manage to make a description BAM that doesn't make me wince there'll be a component for randomising the material needed to forge the IMoD.

Edited by Wisp, 22 September 2010 - 09:05 AM.


#2 Raj

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 05:41 AM

Now that I think about it, I'd welcome a component that let you shuffle items between the SoA and the ToB parts of a bg2 game. Some powerful items still deserve to be availabe only in the end-game, but for example a lot of what's availabe in the WK is balanced for a underdark-level party imo.

Edit: Do you think is a good idea to have Adalon as a tier 4 location? It's a reward availabe to evil parties only, and they already get the opportunity to upgrade the Human Skin from her.

Edited by Raj, 22 September 2010 - 05:43 AM.


#3 Wisp

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:25 AM

Now that I think about it, I'd welcome a component that let you shuffle items between the SoA and the ToB parts of a bg2 game. Some powerful items still deserve to be availabe only in the end-game, but for example a lot of what's availabe in the WK is balanced for a underdark-level party imo.

Can do. Do you have any particular items in mind? Either stuff that should stay in ToB or non-WK stuff that could be found in SoA.

Edit: Do you think is a good idea to have Adalon as a tier 4 location? It's a reward availabe to evil parties only, and they already get the opportunity to upgrade the Human Skin from her.

I didn't think it was right killing a dragon (one of the most powerful ones in SoA, no less) in her own lair and getting a grand total of nothing. Sure, you get the blood but that's not part of her hoard (and other dragons give scales).
That it's a mere tier 4 item is because it's only attainable if you kill her. For comparison, Firkraag gets two tier 6 items, plus Carsomyr. Thax gets a tier 5 and tier 6 item and Nizi gets two tier 7 items (but he's just back from looting Suldanessellar). As an additional consideration, siding with Adalon gives up to 100k quest XP while siding against her gives 0 quest XP.

Edited by Wisp, 22 September 2010 - 07:28 AM.


#4 Raj

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:18 AM

Can do. Do you have any particular items in mind? Either stuff that should stay in ToB or non-WK stuff that could be found in SoA.


Some SoA items are very powerful till the end of ToB, so those could be moved to chapters 8-9 as well.
To keep things simple, I think there could be the option to shuffle the old tier 7 and tier 10 items so that they share the same tier and are availabe from enemies of both halves of the game.
There will be 14 tier 7 locations in SoA for 14 tier 7 and 28 tier 10 items, so you can expect to get like 8-10 pieces of ToB loot ( mostly un-upgraded +3/+4 weapons, most of them less powerful than tier 7 Celestial Fury or Soul Reaver anyway ) while defeating underdark enemies, the twisted rune, Bodhi or Nizi, while at the same time delaying the best staff/robe/chain/cloak for later. Fair enough if you ask me.

Edit: I wonder if I could just test that on my own and change the tier of all lvl 10 locations and items into tier 7, is it going to be enough? Or shall I alter those token/location ''w##'' numbers as well?

I woudn't restrict that to non-WK stuff either: quivers of plenty, wands of cursing and spellstriking come to my mind as medium quality loot that is not going to ruin the SoA balance, and finding 4 copies of the same wand in the WK is a bit silly.

Almost all the ioun stones are weak compared to the SoA ones, expecially the +1 to one stat ( gold, silver, obsidian ): they could be mixed into some low level tier and maybe somebody will use them.

Bigby Scrolls.

Edited by Raj, 22 September 2010 - 08:24 AM.


#5 Daulmakan

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:22 AM

I'm already planning on randomising potions, wands and ammunition, and if I can manage to make a description BAM that doesn't make me wince there'll be a component for randomising the material needed to forge the IMoD.

What type of item BAM do you need? I could give it a shot if you want.

Just FYI, I provide an alternate way of forging the IMoD in my mod, if you want to check for it during installation of the Randomizer to avoid duplication.
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#6 Wisp

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 12:00 PM

Can do. Do you have any particular items in mind? Either stuff that should stay in ToB or non-WK stuff that could be found in SoA.


Some SoA items are very powerful till the end of ToB, so those could be moved to chapters 8-9 as well.
To keep things simple, I think there could be the option to shuffle the old tier 7 and tier 10 items so that they share the same tier and are availabe from enemies of both halves of the game.
There will be 14 tier 7 locations in SoA for 14 tier 7 and 28 tier 10 items, so you can expect to get like 8-10 pieces of ToB loot ( mostly un-upgraded +3/+4 weapons, most of them less powerful than tier 7 Celestial Fury or Soul Reaver anyway ) while defeating underdark enemies, the twisted rune, Bodhi or Nizi, while at the same time delaying the best staff/robe/chain/cloak for later. Fair enough if you ask me.

It certainly qualifies as an optional component.

Edit: I wonder if I could just test that on my own and change the tier of all lvl 10 locations and items into tier 7, is it going to be enough? Or shall I alter those token/location ''w##'' numbers as well?

Each token needs to be unique within its tier. If you're using Mode 2 there is no character limit, but for Mode 1 the token cannot be more than 3 characters long. The easiest thing would probably be to replace 'w' for the tier 10 items with another letter. 'r', 'x' and 'p' are used internally and the matching is case-insensitive.

I woudn't restrict that to non-WK stuff either: quivers of plenty, wands of cursing and spellstriking come to my mind as medium quality loot that is not going to ruin the SoA balance, and finding 4 copies of the same wand in the WK is a bit silly.

Almost all the ioun stones are weak compared to the SoA ones, expecially the +1 to one stat ( gold, silver, obsidian ): they could be mixed into some low level tier and maybe somebody will use them.

Bigby Scrolls.

Yes, those are good candidates for optional SoA loot.

I'll probably make this as two subcomponents. One with full cross-over randomisation and one where some of the less awe-inspiring ToB loot (Wands of Cursing, some ioun stones, Yamato, Dagger of the Star etc) can be found in SoA and some of the better SoA items can maybe be found in ToB.

I'm already planning on randomising potions, wands and ammunition, and if I can manage to make a description BAM that doesn't make me wince there'll be a component for randomising the material needed to forge the IMoD.

What type of item BAM do you need? I could give it a shot if you want.

Oh, it's supposed to be a triangular bar of illithium. I made an inventory icon I'm reasonably happy with but decided it was time to be flighty and move on to something else before I got very far with the description icon (the brown one). I can probably manage but if you really want to have a stab at it I certainly wouldn't be unappreciative. I can provide you with the inventory icon if you want.

Just FYI, I provide an alternate way of forging the IMoD in my mod, if you want to check for it during installation of the Randomizer to avoid duplication.

Will do.

#7 DavidW

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 01:43 PM

Do you randomize the components of the Equalizer et al? I ask because the SoA assemblable items actually have hints in their descriptions as to where they're to be found. So if you do, possibly that could be made optional for pedants like me?

#8 Wisp

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:25 AM

Do you randomize the components of the Equalizer et al? I ask because the SoA assemblable items actually have hints in their descriptions as to where they're to be found. So if you do, possibly that could be made optional for pedants like me?

Yes, the Gesen, Wave and Equalizer stuff is all normally randomised.

I can look into making a 'strict' option that makes the main component less carefree about what it randomises.

I know Item Revisions' altered item descriptions have come up a few times, like that time with the ranger armour. This 'strict' option could also be used to account for changes like that and e.g. keep Mielikki's Gift from being randomised (if Item Revisions is installed) while still randomising The Night's Gift (if Item Revisions is not installed).


But until then it's a simple procedure to keep items from being randomised yourself. In the case of the Gesen/Wave/Equalizer stuff it's merely a matter of editing "randomiser/lists/itemslist.2da" and "randomiser/lists/weiduitem.2da". If the items are removed from those lists they'll not be randomised.

#9 Raj

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 08:13 AM

Heh, I think I started to customize your lists to the point I'm running a totally different mod :) I had to do so mostly because playing with a sorta of Revised Item Revision ( heh, sorry Demi, that's a long wait for v3 :D ) many tiers had to be changed in order not to find too powerful items too early. I almost never go to the WK before finish SoA as well so I like the option to find some WK weak loot in the early chapters as well.

Anyway, toying with the lists I saw the 'replacement' column and I wonder if I can put whatever weapon I wish in the main hand if a weapon is randomized, or are there any 1handed/2handed/ranged restrictions? What about proficiencies? Are randomized shields equipped? Are 2handed weapons used if the enemy does usually carry a shield? :beer: Edit: after some testing I see the replacement weapon is not created if he gets another weapon, but sometime a enemy gets two weapons, which one will he use?
Note: the warden has a very lame +1 (or masterwork if modded) mace. I'd put something like a +2 greatsword there because it suits the demon knight appearance, but then I see he only has 1 point into small swords/mace/missile profs ala BG1, so if I understand how bg1 profs do work it has to be a short/long( and not bastard ) sword in order to have him fight well; anyway if he gets a random weapon, even one of those elemental staves, he is not getting his replacement weapon so I'm worried he'll fight with a suboptimal weapon he has no profs in.

Edited by Raj, 23 September 2010 - 08:31 AM.


#10 Wisp

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 08:54 AM

Heh, I think I started to customize your lists to the point I'm running a totally different mod :) I had to do so mostly because playing with a sorta of Revised Item Revision ( heh, sorry Demi, that's a long wait for v3 :p ) many tiers had to be changed in order not to find too powerful items too early. I almost never go to the WK before finish SoA as well so I like the option to find some WK weak loot in the early chapters as well.

Good :D
I've always intended for the mod to be customisable and I'm glad my efforts haven't been wasted.

Anyway, toying with the lists I saw the 'replacement' column and I wonder if I can put whatever weapon I wish in the main hand if a weapon is randomized, or are there any 1handed/2handed/ranged restrictions?

"Replacement" is a straight swap. The replacement item ends up in the same inventory slot as the old item, inherits flags and everything and no checking is done to make sure the item doesn't clash with any other item.

What about proficiencies? What does happen if a guy ends with a 2h or bow+shield? What if he loses his weapon, gets a replacement, then another random weapon, which one will he choose to use? :beer:

Proficiencies are taken into account when a random weapon is given to the creature but are not altered unless it's done manually. Illegal weapon combinations (e.g. two-handed sword + shield) results in CTDs. I should probably add some safe guards to the replacement weapon code so it won't result in an illegal combination. If the creature has a (replacement) weapon and receives a random weapon there's a fairly lengthy chunk of code that tries to optimise his equipped items. Assuming the items can be equipped together it comes down to item rank (arbitrarily specified in "randomiser/lists/item_ranking.2da") and proficiency. The weapons are summed up according to rank + 1.5*prof and the weapon with the highest sum wins. Undroppable items always win, as do unranked magical items. Replacement items are deleted if a random item fills the same niche.

Note: the warden has a very lame +1 (or masterwork if modded) mace. I'd put something like a +2 greatsword there because it suits the demon knight appearance, but then I see he only has 1 point into small swords/mace/missile profs ala BG1

Yeah, I guess I should make it a two-handed sword and give him a point in large swords.

, so if I understand how bg1 profs do work it has to be a short/long( and not bastard ) sword in order to have him fight well

Long swords are large swords as well. Small swords are just short swords and daggers.

; any hint about how to have the replacement undroppable ( my next idea was to create a greatsword with bonus prof ** )? :D

You can specify droppability in the item file itself. How you set the item to be undroppable depends on how you make it. Or you can do it by using WeiDU to copy the file into the game.

Edited by Wisp, 23 September 2010 - 08:56 AM.


#11 onerous

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 10:56 AM

How about an option to not have items randomized to the guarded compound, the mystery area in sewers of the temple district, and the twisted rune? I always thought these areas were bogus since there is nothing in game that compels the PC to visit any of these areas and I would like to just avoid them entirely without having to cheat some powerful item into my inventory. I would like to add Durlag's tower and Watcher's Keep to the list but that's because I lose the motivation to continue after the third level of these dungeons (and it probably would be asking too much).

#12 Wisp

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 03:54 PM

How about an option to not have items randomized to the guarded compound, the mystery area in sewers of the temple district, and the twisted rune?

You can relatively easily make changes like this yourself.
I've been meaning to post a detailed explanation for how to customise Item Randomiser, but I keep getting side-tracked. I'll see if I can't get it done sometime (before v7, at the very least ???).

#13 onerous

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:38 AM

How about an option to not have items randomized to the guarded compound, the mystery area in sewers of the temple district, and the twisted rune?

You can relatively easily make changes like this yourself.
I've been meaning to post a detailed explanation for how to customise Item Randomiser, but I keep getting side-tracked. I'll see if I can't get it done sometime (before v7, at the very least :)).


Whenever you're ready. :)

#14 Raj

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 02:56 AM

Not sure if this is material for IR, but I'd welcome a component that lowers the amount of money availabe to players, or creates some money-sink.

At the start of ToB, after having forged everything I could forge, bought many items from stores with a cha 10 protagonist ( didn't swap the toons around in order to shop either ), even bought at 40k gold each the tomes from BG1 I reintroduced ( I was hoping for them to be an adequate money sink but... ) and having crafted a bunch of scrolls with the ATweaks component I am left with 200k gold. This before killing anything in WK or ToB and starting to sell the +3 gear :)

To be fair, I'm a packrat and ended vanilla ToB with more than 1 million more than once; I almost never buy potions or scrolls either.

To keep it simple maybe an option to raise Cespenar/Cromwel prices, or reduce by a % amount the value of items.

Rearranging the random loot tables might be a cool thing as well.

Edited by Raj, 24 March 2011 - 03:00 AM.


#15 Wisp

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 05:31 AM

I have been accused of proliferating the amount of available money in the game before, so maybe something to combat that would be in order. Making Cespenar and Cromwell charge more is a good suggestion. And maybe there's something else that can be done.

I know Aurora does something with gold rewards and random loot tables, so I'd have to see if there's something left for me.



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