51 replies to this topic

[Demivrgvs]

Guest, on Nov 27 2010, 03:29 PM, said:

I've just noticed that Fiends won't attack enemy liches, unless liches summon creatures.

What the...it doesn't make sense! I'll look into it.

Edit: I can confirm the issue. Now I have to find out why something so strange happens...

Edited by Demivrgvs, 27 November 2010 - 08:02 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

Guest, on Nov 27 2010, 03:29 PM, said:

I've just noticed that Fiends won't attack enemy liches, unless liches summon creatures.

I've found what the hell is going on...it's actually a compatibility issue with SCSII liches. For some reason they got a permanent, not dispellable "protection from summoned demon" feature , thus summoned demons don't see them at all!

I'm not sure I follow the logic here, I need your help DavidW: considering you change fiends gender from "summoned demon" to "male", what's that "immunity to summoned demon" there for?

That being said, I can fix the issue by applying the same gender change, as I currently don't need such gender for any check (e.g. a Banishment-like spell or effect), though I actually liked the idea of making IR's Banishing weapons affect gated demons too (I don't exactly because of SCS changes).

Edit: on second thought, I can surely fix that, but isn't your change to liches going to screw vanilla's summoned demons too? Because player summoned demons do need such gender to make them detectable by Protection from Evil spells. The same is probably true even for aVENGER's PnP Fiends, but I suppose those fiends aren't compatible with SCS ones at all in the first place.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 27 November 2010 - 08:55 AM.

[Ardanis]

They say it's vanilla thing http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...c=16565&hl=

[Demivrgvs]

Ardanis, on Nov 27 2010, 06:16 PM, said:

They say it's vanilla thing http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...c=16565&hl=

Oh my...liches have always been immune to demons?!? That's terrible!

[Shaitan]

Indeed, strange that I never experienced that...

[DavidW]

It's almost certainly because liches sometimes summon fiends and the developers found in playtesting that it wasn't viable to keep NPC spellcasters protected from evil. I'll take that as indirect support for the way I handle fiend-summoning in SCS!

While this isn't an SCS bug, I can see a fairly good argument for saying that changing it (as part of "smarter mages") is within SCS's design parameters, since (if I'm right) it's a feature of liches that's there only to allow them to do something they don't need to do anyway on an SCS install.

[Demivrgvs]

DavidW, on Nov 27 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

It's almost certainly because liches sometimes summon fiends and the developers found in playtesting that it wasn't viable to keep NPC spellcasters protected from evil. I'll take that as indirect support for the way I handle fiend-summoning in SCS!

While this isn't an SCS bug, I can see a fairly good argument for saying that changing it (as part of "smarter mages") is within SCS's design parameters, since (if I'm right) it's a feature of liches that's there only to allow them to do something they don't need to do anyway on an SCS install.

Cool. Thus if I'm not wrong I don't have to do anything on my side...unless we think SR should fix that for non-SCS players.

[DavidW]

Demivrgvs, on Nov 28 2010, 10:28 AM, said:

DavidW, on Nov 27 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

It's almost certainly because liches sometimes summon fiends and the developers found in playtesting that it wasn't viable to keep NPC spellcasters protected from evil. I'll take that as indirect support for the way I handle fiend-summoning in SCS!

While this isn't an SCS bug, I can see a fairly good argument for saying that changing it (as part of "smarter mages") is within SCS's design parameters, since (if I'm right) it's a feature of liches that's there only to allow them to do something they don't need to do anyway on an SCS install.

Cool. Thus if I'm not wrong I don't have to do anything on my side...unless we think SR should fix that for non-SCS players.

I've lost track. Are SR fiends still kept at bay by protection from evil? If not, fix it; if so, don't.

[Demivrgvs]

DavidW, on Nov 28 2010, 11:57 AM, said:

Demivrgvs, on Nov 28 2010, 10:28 AM, said:

DavidW, on Nov 27 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

It's almost certainly because liches sometimes summon fiends and the developers found in playtesting that it wasn't viable to keep NPC spellcasters protected from evil. I'll take that as indirect support for the way I handle fiend-summoning in SCS!

While this isn't an SCS bug, I can see a fairly good argument for saying that changing it (as part of "smarter mages") is within SCS's design parameters, since (if I'm right) it's a feature of liches that's there only to allow them to do something they don't need to do anyway on an SCS install.

Cool. Thus if I'm not wrong I don't have to do anything on my side...unless we think SR should fix that for non-SCS players.

I've lost track. Are SR fiends still kept at bay by protection from evil? If not, fix it; if so, don't.

No they aren't, ProEvil spells themselves don't grant "immunity to demons" anymore. I was simply unsure if patching creatures is within SR's scope, though I just remembered that we already do that (e.g. SR patches flaming skulls to be immune to Incendiary Cloud).

[DavidW]

Demivrgvs, on Nov 28 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

I was simply unsure if patching creatures is within SR's scope, though I just remembered that we already do that (e.g. SR patches flaming skulls to be immune to Incendiary Cloud).

In general I think you're wise not treat creature-patching as within SR's scope, but this is a special case. If you buy my theory as to why liches are immune to summoned demons (i.e., if they're not they can't use Gate effectively, so it's a crude patch) then since the crude patch isn't relevant now the spell's changed, it should be eliminated.

[i30817]

I do not like that the only chance of a fiend to revolt is at the summoning time.
The original had the "feature" that if your PfE was dispelled the fiend could attack you, and that the fiend attacked innocents (which i didn't know, and summoned one to deal with the zerth party in the city .... opss, reputation in the shitter)

[Jarno Mikkola]

i30817, on 09 December 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

I do not like that the only chance of a fiend to revolt is at the summoning time.
The original had the "feature" that if your PfE was dispelled the fiend could attack you, and that the fiend attacked innocents (which i didn't know, and summoned one to deal with the zerth party in the city .... opss, reputation in the shitter)

In that case the rep doesn't take hit cause the revolting Fiend is not a party member meaning that it's actions don't effect the party's rep...