51 replies to this topic

[Demivrgvs]

Tonton Fred, on Jul 22 2010, 07:38 AM, said:

Since you're working on the subject and even plan to introduce V4-like features, are you planning to introduce more of aTweaks' fiends AI features (Blood War & co), as was discussed previously ?

Not for now sorry, it started as a fix for a V3 issue, and it evolved to a consistent change, but further improvements should be lest for a new version.

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Since aVENGER was ok with SR reusing his code, this should cut down on the implementation/bugfix time, hopefully.

It's not so easy, because aTweak uses many custom spells, we have different abilities, and slightly different aims. What I wanted to do sooner or later was to introduce a couple of cool, though mostly cosmetic, aspects of aTweak's fiends...but it can wait imo.

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Second point : if you start modifying Summoned fiends, does that mean that on a SR/SCS install, in-world fiends would now behave differently from summoned ones ?

Absolutely not, actually my current changes make everything more consistent:
* before these changes with SCSII fiends summoned by the AI were ignoring ProEvil, while player summoned ones could be fooled by it. Now player summoned fiends too won't be affected by ProEvil anymore (except for the +2 AC and saves still granted to protected creatures).
* before these changes summoned fiends were true ally when summoned by the AI, and unpredictable semi-hostile summons for players, but with a simple ProEvil, which fiends had no way to remove, players could easily "abuse" these powerful summons (with a 100% chance they'd simply go after the AI). Now summoned fiends will behave as ally even for players, but for balance purposes, players will have a relatively small chance of not being able of convincing fiends to work for them (while you have to assume the AI is always "lucky").

P.S I've posted a second beta which should be 99% complete.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 22 July 2010 - 01:48 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

Noober, on Jul 22 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

Hey, how about this. Casting Gate to bring forth a fiend entails an XP sacrifice (as per PnP). That way the complications are done away with as the fiend can behave just like any other summon, becoming a useful addition instead of a headache -- but spamming Gate does not become a valid/useful strategy, and will hinder more than help in the long run, as it should be.

Doable?

Yep, but when it was first discussed (there's a topic somewhere here in the SR forums with a quite long debate on the "bargain-like" feature) most players seemd to hate the xp loss solution.

P.S This morning I had very little spare time but I tried few more things and I've slightly improved all fiends a little more:
- better targeting system based on aTweak's scripts
- slightly changed abilities to better match SCS fiends (e.g. Glabrezus get PW:Stun instead of PW:Blind, Death Knights have Symbol of Stunning instead of Symbol of Weakness, ...)
- all fiends now have Remove Magic (once every 5 rounds) which they'll use against targets of equal or lower lvl to dispel buffs (e.g. Mirror Image, PfMW, etc)

I think I've more or less finished, though I still have to tweak Protection from Evil spells, and update all the spells descriptions.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 22 July 2010 - 04:51 AM.

[Constantine]

Demivrgvs, on Jul 21 2010, 04:53 AM, said:

* when cast by the AI the fiend will always be on AI's side (a la SCS)

I personally dislike this idea, it's kinda unfair when AI's cheating with "special" spells and such. And I'd actually like to see enemy mages get beaten by their own summons from time to time.

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Possible refinements include:
* different % chances based on various conditions

I'd like to have at least 95% chance of success, or this spell will be rather useless and omitted by players or will force reloading imo.

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* make allied fiends only partially tolerant to their summoners (e.g. if players hurt them, even unintentionally, there may be a x% chance fiends won't take it kindly and turn against the party)

Good, but it must be the real damage, if I cast fireball on the fiend immune to fire, he shouldn't get angry.

[Demivrgvs]

Constantine, on Jul 23 2010, 01:42 PM, said:

Demivrgvs, on Jul 21 2010, 04:53 AM, said:

* when cast by the AI the fiend will always be on AI's side (a la SCS)

I personally dislike this idea, it's kinda unfair when AI's cheating with "special" spells and such. And I'd actually like to see enemy mages get beaten by their own summons from time to time.

The AI couldn't handle that, and there are good roleplaying reasons too to allow the AI casting them. The % chance is supposed to be based on a lot of factors, and you just have to assume that the AI has a pact with the summoned fiend, is going to pay a price or whatever.

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Possible refinements include:
* different % chances based on various conditions

I'd like to have at least 95% chance of success, or this spell will be rather useless and omitted by players or will force reloading imo.

Well, considering the outstanding firepower fiends grant there has to be some serious drawback, else you'd fill every single slot with them (e.g. not even Horrid Wilting can unleash havoc as much as a Glabrezu). The bargain like system would improve this aspect, and could allow me to raise the chance of success up to 95%, but no more then that imo.

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* make allied fiends only partially tolerant to their summoners (e.g. if players hurt them, even unintentionally, there may be a x% chance fiends won't take it kindly and turn against the party)

Good, but it must be the real damage, if I cast fireball on the fiend immune to fire, he shouldn't get angry.

I agree, but it's not so easy to handle, we'll see.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs, on Jul 22 2010, 03:10 PM, said:

Noober, on Jul 22 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

Hey, how about this. Casting Gate to bring forth a fiend entails an XP sacrifice (as per PnP). That way the complications are done away with as the fiend can behave just like any other summon, becoming a useful addition instead of a headache -- but spamming Gate does not become a valid/useful strategy, and will hinder more than help in the long run, as it should be.

Doable?

Yep, but when it was first discussed (there's a topic somewhere here in the SR forums with a quite long debate on the "bargain-like" feature) most players seemed to hate the xp loss solution.

Well I am against the XP loss if we cannot gain back the lost XP, for example by killing the fiend.
Of course the lost XP would o the whole party in that, but that's only a good point.
So if the sacrifice is 10 000xp, the party should gain 10 000xp back when they kill the darn thing... and if it gets loose(the summon time ends) or is killed by enemies, the caster of course looses the XP. ... the only problem from this is the cumulative effect count... say the caster casts 20 times the spell, he is permanently under the 20 effects... and as the game can be quite long sometimes the numbers can rank up quite a bit...

Demivrgvs, on Jul 21 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

We're not buffing anything, that's what ProEvil did before I was born, and +2 AC and saves for 1 hour is already a huge boost for a 1st lvl spell!

It's not just a first level spell, it's also a forth level spell with a small area effect... meaning that it should be better than Haste for example. And considering it's the only spell that spells out that it protects from evil... and you just upped the demons to the second potency, you might wish to consider upping the spells power against the demos...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 23 July 2010 - 06:39 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, I think I've finished working on these scripts, I've added one last thing that fortunately works as Costantine was hoping for: fiends will now turn hostile if damaged by party members, but for example pit fiends won't consider fire-based AoE spells as hostile because they are immune to them. I and Ardanis have already planned tons of refinements for them (e.g. when damaged by party members fiends may warn their summoner to not do that again, giving players a "second chance") and I can surely improve their targeting system (it's fine, but I'm not as good as David with scripts) but for now I'm satisfied with them.

To make sure Death Knights don't get involved in the Blood War I've set their alignment to Neutral Evil, though in FR lore they should actually be Chaotic Evil being created by Demogorgon himself. For consistency's sake I may set Death Knight's resistances more like vanilla. In PnP they are immune to electricity, and being undead they are immune to cold, but for some reason all vanilla in-world demon knights are instead immune to fire...thus I may replace "immunity to electricity" with "immunity to fire".

Pit Fiends are no longer immune to electricity to better match in-game versions of it, and I've fixed their broken poisonous bite, which now works almost as per aTweak (10 dmg per sec for 2 rounds), rivaling Balor's vorpal attack.


Protection from Evil

Jarno Mikkola, on Jul 23 2010, 04:25 PM, said:

Demivrgvs, on Jul 21 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

We're not buffing anything, that's what ProEvil did before I was born, and +2 AC and saves for 1 hour is already a huge boost for a 1st lvl spell!

It's not just a first level spell, it's also a forth level spell with a small area effect... meaning that it should be better than Haste for example. And considering it's the only spell that spells out that it protects from evil... and you just upped the demons to the second potency, you might wish to consider upping the spells power against the demos...

I reduced ProEvil's AoE to "nerf" it because it seemed to outshine Defensive Harmony in every possible way (and because PnP Circle against Evil works like that), but I've probably gone too far. Considering it doesn't grant the silly "immunity to fiends" anymore I think 4th lvl version of ProEvil can now have again a non-aura behaviour.

Actually it doesn't even require to be limited to it's old 10' radius, because the only thing it did was forcing the player to have all the party reunited in a small area while casting it, and I've just remembered that PnP version of this spell wasn't a 4th lvl spell but a 3rd lvl one (which explains the need for the small, aura-like limitation). As a 4th lvl spell I now think it can work as a full Mass ProEvil (large AoE Pro Evil, with same longer duration used by its 1st lvl version).

[Demivrgvs]

I've updated the Beta, which actually now is a full Hotfixes release, including all ProEvil changes mentioned above (I also added Paladin's ProEvil innate ability, which was previously not touched by SR), and updated descriptions (for all of these spells).

I hope someone can test it a little...as soon as it seems stable this beta will replace the latest Hotfixes.

[Salk]

Demivrgvs, on Jul 23 2010, 03:21 PM, said:

Well, considering the outstanding firepower fiends grant there has to be some serious drawback, else you'd fill every single slot with them (e.g. not even Horrid Wilting can unleash havoc as much as a Glabrezu). The bargain like system would improve this aspect, and could allow me to raise the chance of success up to 95%, but no more then that imo.

Personally I would no doubt introduce a system where the allegiance base chance of success (85% sounds fine to me) is modified by two factors:

- Charisma of the Summoner
- Money/Gems

Having the alignment play a role does not make much sense to me because the fiend shouldn't really be more easily tamed just because the summoner is evil.

Edited by Salk, 24 July 2010 - 09:13 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Salk, on Jul 25 2010, 08:09 AM, said:

Having the alignment play a role does not make much sense to me because the fiend shouldn't really be more easily tamed just because the summoner is evil.

What makes you think that, just because I don't like this dudes face, nor the shiny things it carries... I am going to go hostile against him, after all he wishes to rearrange this world the way I want to... Now, I am going to go hostile on your *** so fast you'll never going to see it coming.

[Incantatar]

Salk, on Jul 24 2010, 09:09 PM, said:

- Charisma of the Summoner
- Money/Gems

Having the alignment play a role does not make much sense to me because the fiend shouldn't really be more easily tamed just because the summoner is evil.

I'd say
-Charisma (more general influence)
-Caster lvl (implying better barter skills and giving more respect/intimidation)

Can fiends buy stuff in Baator with money? A lvl>hd caster with 18 charisma should have 95% in my opinion. Perhaps a caster with lower lvl and charisma could throw money in to improve the chance.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Guest_Ardanis_*, on Sep 11 2010, 09:31 PM, said:

'Incantatar' said:

Can fiends buy stuff in Baator with money?

Mortal conjurers often demand gold from summoned fiends. NWN2 MotB even has a semi-quest where a demon demands a cash payment and when PC wonders wtf it gonna do with money, the fiend explains that it runs short on Prime's currency and needs to restock the supply before getting back to work.

So the player should be gaining money, not loosing it.

[Demivrgvs]

Incantatar, on Sep 11 2010, 07:56 PM, said:

Salk, on Jul 24 2010, 09:09 PM, said:

- Charisma of the Summoner
- Money/Gems

Having the alignment play a role does not make much sense to me because the fiend shouldn't really be more easily tamed just because the summoner is evil.

I'd say
-Charisma (more general influence)
-Caster lvl (implying better barter skills and giving more respect/intimidation)

Can fiends buy stuff in Baator with money? A lvl>hd caster with 18 charisma should have 95% in my opinion. Perhaps a caster with lower lvl and charisma could throw money in to improve the chance.

I'm not sure myself about money, though for some reason it's a common thing (together with xp) used in PnP or other games.

Charisma and caster level should indeed play a major role, but for the former we'd need to make these spells work via dialogs a la Wish. And yes, a 25th lvl caster with CHA 18 could indeed have 95% chance to "subjugate" the fiend.

Actually I'm not even against allowing 100% chance, but that should require special circumstances imo, because pit fiends are supposed to be more powerful than Planetars.

[Ardanis]

"Jarno" said:

So the player should be gaining money, not loosing it.

I suppose Baatorian native knows better then

"Demi" said:

Actually I'm not even against allowing 100% chance, but that should require special circumstances imo, because pit fiends are supposed to be more powerful than Planetars.

Well, if 100% would require 4-6 rogue stones, I think we're already pretty much limited to 3-4 such occasions at most, 2 being more likely the case.