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General Viconia Discussion


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#1 Zandilar

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 06:11 PM

Heya,

I just locked the Debate thread because I have decided that no further discussion regarding Viconia's sexuality will be entered into. I've said all I can say on the matter, both in public posts and in PMs. I am not censoring anyone from their point of view, but the issue of proof or lack of proof regarding Viconia's sexuality is really a very dead equine, which I have no desire to beat any furhter.

This thread is for more general discussion.

@BobTokyo: I decided that this will be Viconia's first close relationship with a woman, friendship or romance.

#2 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 04:10 AM

1) Is the female PC romance completely different to the original male PC version, or are there some similarities (shared dialogues, etc)?

2) Similarly, will the female romance still feature a possible redemption in ToB?

3) Will there be new banters between Viconia and other Bioware NPCs? An Anomen romance conflict would be... interesting :).

4) If yes to 3), will any of the Bio NPCs prove to be biased against a same-sex relationship? I'd imagine Keldorn and Mazzy may not entirely approve.

#3 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 04:24 AM

1) There are indeed some dialogues in Vicionia Relationship that are very similar to Bioware romance dialogues. They do have some new material added to them though.

2) I would think so.

3) Ermm... we haven't actually talked about adding banters though its entirely possible. Obviously, some sort of romance conflict will exist but it won't be the stand 'jealous interjections into lovetalks' version as Viccy isn't actively looking for a romance.

4) Again, we haven't discussed this yet although I don't think there would be.
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#4 Zandilar

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 03:15 PM

Heya,

Grim pretty much answered all your questions, but I thought I might hop in on questions 2, 3 and 4 with my own point of view.

1) Is the female PC romance completely different to the original male PC version, or are there some similarities (shared dialogues, etc)?

2) Similarly, will the female romance still feature a possible redemption in ToB?


If it were entirely up to me, I'd slow it right down and make parts of it occur in SoA.

3) Will there be new banters between Viconia and other Bioware NPCs? An Anomen romance conflict would be... interesting :).


I'm certainly planning to have a couple of NPCs react to the growing friendship/relationship. Anomen is one of them. I probably should write Viconia interjections into Anomen's romance as well, but I'll have to see how I go.

4) If yes to 3), will any of the Bio NPCs prove to be biased against a same-sex relationship? I'd imagine Keldorn and Mazzy may not entirely approve.


Keldorn's bias against Viconia is merely to do with his hatred of Drow, and so yes he will have negative things to say about the relationship - but it will be motivated by "don't you see this black hearted creature is trying to corrupt you?!" (When the PC is actually the initiator of the relationship :)) If it wasn't Viconia, if it was say... Jaheira... Then Keldorn probably wouldn't have a problem with the relationship.

I am currently waiting on a more comprehensive answer on homosexuality in the Realms from Ed Greenwood (he's a very busy man, and we're lucky there are people who will take questions to him, and that he does take time out to answer them)... Once I get that I'll be able to say which NPCs, if any, will have a homophobic stand. But there are certain characters who will have something to say about the relationship... Anomen being the primary one.

I would really rather not include homophobia at all, but will do so if that will accurately portray the Realms.

#5 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 02:04 AM

I wasn't meaning outright homophobia, just disapproval. There is a difference between the two you know :).

#6 Zandilar

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 02:37 AM

Heya,

I wasn't meaning outright homophobia, just disapproval.  There is a difference between the two you know :).


That's semantics. Homophobia, sexual prejudice, heterosexism... Whatever.

The implication of your question was that you thought that Keldorn and Mazzy for some gods only known reason would be prejudiced about the relationship mostly because it was homosexual in nature, not because of the fact that Viconia is a) a drow, b) is evil, and c) is a priestess of Shar. I think those three reasons would be slightly more important to Mazzy and Keldorn than the fact that the two people in the relationship are both female. (Mind you, there will be disapproval, even if it's only a friendship because Viconia is a NE drow priestess of Shar!!)

If I seem to be reacting a touch harshly about this, well basically I locked the other thread because I didn't want to have to go through all this again.

If my research into the Realms reveals wider spread homophobia than I feel there is, then yes there will be homophobic reactions.
(Ed's already answered the question on general attitudes for me, I have linked it before (if you want to see it again, it's linked in my sig now - and when I get more information, I'll link it in my sig as well)... I have also asked for further clarification from him - but he's a busy man and I don't expect to get an answer any time soon)

So, for the last time... This is just as much a dead equine as proof of Viconia's sexuality. Please, just drop this.

Edit: Amazingly enough, I checked the Candlekeep forum and what did I spy but a rather long answer from Ed Greenwood. You can find it on this page, in a post dated 10th September 2004, conveyed by the lovely Hooded One. It covers a lot of ground, and means I need to think about how certain characters will react to the relationship.)

Edited by Zandilar, 10 September 2004 - 03:21 AM.


#7 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:35 AM

My sincerest apologies, but I'm afraid you're putting words in my mouth, words that I would otherwise have never spoken. I'm not attempting a discussing revolving around the p-word, encouraging it, or even saying that it should be involved in your mod in anyway (other than the prejudice held because Viconia is evil and Drow - please don't get rid of that! :)).

I'm talking about disapproval, and contrary to your statement it isn't merely a case of semantics because the two things are very different indeed. It's a genuine case of ignorance versus intolerance, i.e. "I'm not too fond of this" or "I don't see why they can't find themselves a couple of decent fellas" versus "I absolutely hate this" or "these people deserve to be locked-up".

Okay so obviously you wouldn't be too happy with disapproving comments, but prejudiced comments would be downright insulting. Plus at least you can attempt to reason with and educate the former group of people, whereas with the the latter group there's almost no hope (especially considering a lot of them will be in the closet anyway :)).

If you still think the two things are the same, then I'm very sorry and I guess there is indeed no point in saying anything further on the subject. However, you may wish to consider that some homosexual people have a prejudice of their own: namely the belief that everyone who doesn't outright agree with the concept of same-sex relationships (I'm glad to say I'm not one of them) is the same. In my book, prejudice is never healthy.

Talking in purely general terms, there will be voices of dissent (be they spoken or unspoken) directed towards any form of relationship, whether the people involved are straight, gay or bi; whether they're in love or in lust; whether they're married or unmarried; whether there's the standard two people or an entire group; and so on. To suggest otherwise is entirely unrealistic, and IMHO the issued is passed over by far too many heterosexual romance mods.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 10 September 2004 - 05:50 AM.


#8 Zandilar

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 05:51 AM

Heya,

If you still think those two are the same thing, then I'm very sorry and I guess there's no point in saying anything further on the subject.  However, if you cannot see the difference then it seems likely you a prejudice of your own: namely the belief that everyone who doesn't appear to agree with the concept of same-sex relationships (no, I'm not one of them) is the same.  In my book, prejudice is never healthy.


Thank you indeed for pointing out to me where I was being blind, and please accept my apologies. :) I now understand what you were getting at.

Having thoroughly read through Ed's reply to my questions, I can now say that yes there are a few people who will make disapproving noises (Valygar (maybe), Nalia, Mazzy, Keldorn, Anomen) for a variety of reasons (mostly do to with the fact that all of those people have nobility and lineage as common themes). I don't think they will be overly strong, or particularly insulting, but there will be bias shown.

#9 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 05:55 AM

No apologies neccessary. As I said, I don't disapprove of same-sex relationships in the slightest :). In fact, I've rewritten parts of my post (including the bit you quoted) as they seem a bit harsh and personal, which wasn't my intention at all.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 10 September 2004 - 06:01 AM.


#10 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 09:34 PM

Yes, please add something about Anomen being jealous...and then maybe something about Viconia strangling the obnoxious little SOB :D

#11 Zandilar

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 02:43 AM

Heya,

Yes, please add something about Anomen being jealous...and then maybe something about Viconia strangling the obnoxious little SOB :D


Anomen is going to be the main romance conflict (he gets to interject at similar points in the romance that Aerie or Jaheira would have in the male romance - I do have a secret second interjector, which I am not going to say anything about for now)... Knowing Viconia, she'll likely put him in his place quickly... but I've also had at least one humorous thought about it which is probably not a good idea.

#12 Tameon the Dragoon

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 09:23 AM

The Fentan's aren't really nobles, are they? Should Mazzy really say anything?

I've always thought they were just regular, ole Halflings.

Edited by Tameon the Dragoon, 23 September 2004 - 02:52 PM.


#13 Megalobird

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 08:20 PM

This file should contain at least a 430 mb .mov file depicting Viconia 'romancing' or 'having a relationship' with the pc, or I just won't download it.

:cry:

#14 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 01:42 AM

how about CN Anomen, Viconia and Pc having a gang bang :D (don't kill me), but I do find that possible (we know Anomen finds Viccy attractive and she does flirt with him in the male Pc romance, so if the Pc would agree to that, I don't think there would be any problems :thumbsup: )

#15 Andyr

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 05:50 AM

Can we include the Spectator Beholder?
Since you're here, download G3 mods please...

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