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Fighter's HLAs


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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 03:06 AM

General changes
Now, this is something where we can do really a lot of things. If you want a good example of what I'll try to accomplish take a look at Refinement's HLAs.

The base concept is that all KR's classes cap at 20th level. At epic levels all classes will rely exclusively on HLAs to eventually improve their base features (such as barbarian's physical resistance or kensai's parry/hit/dmg bonus) or get new features/abilities.

Each true class should have an almost unique base table (Paladins and Rangers shouldn't use Fighter's table anymore, though they might still share a bunch of HLAs), and each kit (true class included) should have at least 1-2 unique HLAs.

Last but not least, I never liked Greater versions of the same ability making the lesser versions completely obsolete just one level later. Greater versions (e.g. Greater Whirwind Attack) will be available only at higher levels (e.g. at 25th lvl) and selectable less times than the lesser one (e.g. you can use WWA 5 times/day, but Gr.WWA can be used only once). This is also useful to differentiate/limit multi-class characters imo (e.g. a Fighter/Mage can get WWA, but only a True Fighter can get GWWA).


True Fighter
Spoiler

Whirlwind Attack & Gr.Whirlwind Attack
Long story: I don't like WWA setting apr to 10 because it favors too much certain weapon styles, and it ignores the starting apr value (e.g. grand-mastery's increased apr). A character proficient with a two-handed greatsword suddenly has the same attack rate of a dual wielder with grand-mastery in short swords, and the slow firing heavy xbow starts to fire bolts as fast as a fast firing short bow (e.g. Tuigan Bow's main feature completely disappear - not to mention IR's Giant-hair Xbow is even slower than normal xbows for a reason and needs to remain such).

Short story: I suggest making WWA double the number of attacks (for 2 rounds) instead of setting apr to 10 (for 1 round).

What do you think of vanilla's heavy -4 penalty to hit/dmg rolls? I suggest to lower it to -2, especially considering that the lesser version will actually be the most used one now (unlike vanilla where you simply pick it once and never care about it again). The Greater WWA (with no penalties, and maybe a slightly longer duration?) will now be available only at 25th lvl (pretty much excluding multi-class fighters from reaching it), and might be available only once/day.

Power Attack & Smite
I was thinking to rename "Power Attack" to something more consistent to what the ability really does (e.g. Stunning Attack), but I can live with the current name. I kinda liked that Smite caused 'unconsciousness' instead of 'stunning' (it makes more sense imo - an uber powerful hit should not leave you on your foot and simply "stunned"), but as it stands now too many creatures would be immune to this ability even when they should not (because the game currently doesn't differentiate between unconsciousness and sleep). Overall I guess the ability per se is more or less fine (it's pretty much Monk's Stunning Fist on steroids).

I do want to rename "Smite" instead, because it doesn't hint the actual effect, and it reminds really too much Paladin's Smite Evil. I think we can just follow what's already there for all other HLAs and call it Greater Power Attack. Regarding its actual effects instead, are we sure the "knockback" effect is an advantage? I assume an epic warrior don't want to knock away a disabled opponent (and then run to him) when he could smash it on the ground and finish him. I suggest to simply make it the natural improvement over PA, adding for example a "no save is allowed if the target has less than 90 hit points". What do you think?

P.S Btw, I don't understand why PA was a prerequisite for Critical Strike, which does a completely different thing imo, and I propose to separate CS from this line of HLAs.

Deathblow & Gr.Deathblow
I never liked (nor used) this HLA because of its HD limitation. It was either too powerful (against low level creatures it's a no save and die) or completely useless (against 90% of ToB opponents it did absolutely nothing). I suggest a solution without HD limitations but which allows a save, much like Monk's Quivering Palm. If we want to limit this HLA, we may use PW:Kill limitation (target needs to have less than 60 hit points), or simply impose a -4 penalty to thac0 and consider it as a sort of "ultimate called shot".

If Deathblow is limited to creatures with less than 60 hit points, then Gr.Deathblow will not. If Deathblow is not limited (I think thac0 penalty and a relatively easy save is enough to balance it) then Gr.Deathblow will improve upon it by slaying creatures with less then 60 hp without allowing a save (aka making this a 1/day PW:Kill which requires a hit roll).


Critical Strike & ...
I suppose Critical Strike per se is pretty much fine, is it? Even when the target is not vulnerable to critical hits it's at least a "always hit" ability, not great but useful sometimes (e.g. when a WS needs to quickly and surely hit that damn mage before he re-cast PfMW).

If we agree about moving CS away from the Power Attack line of HLAs we may decide to add an improved version (e.g. it also causes some debilitating effect and/or bleeding damage).


Battle Cry* & War Cry
I'd improve vanilla HLA and make it one of a "two-tiers" line with something like Battle Cry as prerequisite or Greater War Cry as improvement.

Regarding the pre-existing War Cry I have a simple question, does a mighty barbarian/berserker really want his puny opponents to scatter and flee away? Wouldn't a sort of "paralyzed with fear" or "stunned" effect be much better?

For the eventual lesser version I suggest making it grant +1 bonus to hit/dmg/saves for allies and -1 penalty to opponents (a sort of quick Chant).

P.S I also thought to further differentiate the kits giving them different war cries (e.g. True Fighters getting a buffing Battle Orders, Barbarian and Berserker a debuffing Battle Cry, Kensai a stunning/damaging Ki Shout) but I'm really not sure about it, and in any case that will have to wait later versions of KR.


Hardiness
I've always had serious problems with the uncapped %, and vanilla game made really too easy to reach incredibly high % values or even 100%+ resistance (allowing to be healed by a mace crushing your skull, which is quite silly).

Long story short: I suggest to reduce the resistance from 40% to 20%, but to make it work vs. any type of damage, not just physical damage.


Resist Magic
...


Toughness*
This HLA should grant permanent additional hit points (I suggest +10hp), and should be selectable multiple times.


Superior Weapon Training & Weapon Mastery* (True Fighter Only)
A True Fighter's unique HLA may for example grant Specialization (++) and/or Mastery (+++) in any weapon. We may also split this in different HLAs if necessary (e.g. melee weapons and ranged ones, or bladed, piercing and blunt weapons).


Barbarian
If we don't find enough "True Fighter only" HLAs we may opt instead for restricting some of them to kits. For example Critical Strike doesn't seem much appropriate for a barbarian.

Physical Resistance
It will grant a permanent +5% to physical resistance, and is selectable up to 4 times, allowing them to reach a permanent 40%.

Tireless Rage
I'm still uncertain about this HLA not only because of its sheer power (it pretty much means the Barbarian/Berserker will ALWAYS be enraged, and never fatigued) but mainly because imo it removes too much flavor from the whole Rage thing. Getting fatigued after raging is very iconic and a must conceptually imo. Am I wrong?


Berserker

Fast Healing
KR's Berserker has (and will probably keep) a fast healing ability which allows them to very slowly regain the huge amount of hit points they are going to sustain due to their reckless behaviour (-4 AC penalty when enraged). This HLA should permanently improve this almost supernatural ability, allowing epic Berserkers to regain lost hit points much faster and behave even more recklessly.

Terrifying Howl
I think the name says it all. :D

Tireless Rage
See Barbarian, and for this kit it might be even more overpowering.


Kensai

Canny Defense
Grants a permanent +1 AC vs. melee weapons, and is selectable up to 4 times.

Improved Critical
Grants a permanent +5% chance to score critical hits. Should this HLA be available to True Fighters too?


Wizard Slayer

Magic Resistance
It will grant a permanent +5% to magic resistance, and is selectable up to 4 times, allowing them to reach a permanent 40%.

Superstitious
Just a daring idea. This ability would have multiple tiers, each granting immunity to xth level spells (e.g. 1st and 2nd lvl spells with the first pick, 3rd lvl spells too with the second pick), but this immunity applies to friendly spells too.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 19 December 2013 - 05:21 AM.


#2 Ardanis

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 12:01 PM

To make it short, almost everything you've said about existing HLA matches perfectly what I play with myself. Same goes to proposed new ideas.

Fighter

Whirlwind Attack & Gr.Whirlwind Attack
I see nothing wrong with multiple GWWs, but only if they need equal or greater number of WW as a prereq. But without my suggested dialog interface, which didn't seem popular, that's hardly achievable.

Also, I'd set WW's penalty to -3, instead of -4. The latter seems really too much of a hindrance.


Deathblow & Gr.Deathblow
I'm not really fond of save or else effects. Especially death ones, since where in hell the fun is if they may die in the first round.

In my version, these were sort of anti-summon abilities, killing instantly (with a save) only those, but not someone else. I also added extra damage and thaco to these.

Resist Magic
I say, kill it. But that's imo.

Hardiness

Quote

I'll make it last 1 turn only (10 rounds).
Isn't it the same already? It does claim to last for 1/2lvl rounds, but we all know that everything is capped at level 20.
As for capping it, don't do it, really. Can't speak for the rest, but I somehow do doubt that many would care.
There're two possible issues - F/C' Armor of Faith and Barb's innate resistance.

To deal with the former, I've already mentioned several times to reduce the effectiveness by 10%-15% for multiclasses. F/M won't care anyway, F/Ts prefer backstabbing over tanking and F/Ds, well, let's say they have Barkskin and Ironskin in addition to shield/armor (and if they can't wear metal then they won't care as well, much like F/Ms and F/Ts).

Barbarians, do the same to them. As long as they have DR equal or higher to that of fighters, I see nothing wrong.

Toughness
Refinements' +6 felt like a too small value to me. I say +8 at the least.


Berserker

Frenzy
It's not about HLA, but hit me only now, when I saw the name. Do you remember NWN2? Character couldn't be lowered to 0 HP while frenzying, but took significant damage while at that. Sounds much better than BG2's bonus HP then damage. But that's just a thought.
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#3 Demivrgvs

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 01:54 PM

Fighter

Whirlwind Attack & Gr.Whirlwind Attack

View PostArdanis, on Sep 5 2009, 10:01 PM, said:

I see nothing wrong with multiple GWWs, but only if they need equal or greater number of WW as a prereq. But without my suggested dialog interface, which didn't seem popular, that's hardly achievable.
Yeah, it can't be done and I do want to keep the original interface.

Quote

Also, I'd set WW's penalty to -3, instead of -4. The latter seems really too much of a hindrance.
I don't know, it's hard to tell, and even -2 may be fine. The problem is not that imo, but rather that it's quite pointless to have almost two identical abilities. A lesser/greter version of the same ability is not a great concept, but it may have still some sense if the latter is available much later.

What about restricting Greater Whirlwind, Greater Deathblow and Smite to single class fighters only? I don't want multiclass to get all the HLAs of both classes, but rather some of them from each class and then some unique ones.


Deathblow & Gr.Deathblow

Quote

In my version, these were sort of anti-summon abilities, killing instantly (with a save) only those, but not someone else. I also added extra damage and thaco to these.
An anti-summon ability doesn't sound as a fighting ability appropriate for a true fighter. :)


Resist Magic

Quote

I say, kill it. But that's imo.
Conceptually I agree that this ability doesn't suit true fighters too much (only Wizard Slayers) but at the same time it's clearly a fan favourite and I think RR and SCS do use standard HLAs, and considering what it does this may be a common one.

It may even make some sense that epic fighters develop an innate resistance to spells considering they have faced and have to face uber powerful mages. It' just that for some reason 'magic resistance' seems a little too much a "magical ability" rather than an "innate ability.


Hardiness

Quote

Quote

I'll make it last 1 turn only (10 rounds).
Isn't it the same already? It does claim to last for 1/2lvl rounds, but we all know that everything is capped at level 20.
I think some innate abilities are an exception, this one seems capped at 30th level, and I think paladin's Lay on Hand is not capped too.

Quote

As for capping it (Demi: at 100%), don't do it, really. Can't speak for the rest, but I somehow do doubt that many would care.
Why? A value higher than 100% doesn't make sense imo, does it?

Quote

There're two possible issues - F/C' Armor of Faith and Barb's innate resistance.

To deal with the former, I've already mentioned several times to reduce the effectiveness by 10%-15% for multiclasses. F/M won't care anyway, F/Ts prefer backstabbing over tanking and F/Ds, well, let's say they have Barkskin and Ironskin in addition to shield/armor (and if they can't wear metal then they won't care as well, much like F/Ms and F/Ts).

Barbarians, do the same to them. As long as they have DR equal or higher to that of fighters, I see nothing wrong.
I'm not sure I like the idea of the very same ability being nerfed when used by one class instead of the other. I'd prefer to replace it with another one and restrict Hardiness to single class fighters if the 40% bonus is unmanageable.


Toughness

Quote

Refinements' +6 felt like a too small value to me. I say +8 at the least.
I'm not sure either, being a permanent and cumulative ability I find quite difficult to decide which value would be more appropriate.


Berserker

Frenzy

Quote

It's not about HLA, but hit me only now, when I saw the name. Do you remember NWN2? Character couldn't be lowered to 0 HP while frenzying, but took significant damage while at that. Sounds much better than BG2's bonus HP then damage. But that's just a thought.
Mmm...I fear a complete immunity (via Minimum HP a la Troll) may be quite exploitable.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 06 September 2009 - 03:00 PM.


#4 Ardanis

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 03:14 PM

Fighter

Quote

What about restricting Greater Whirlwind, Greater Deathblow and Smite to single class fighters only?
Doesn't it goes without being said?

Quote

A lesser/greter version of the same ability is not a great concept
Can't say I agree. A simple look at 3E can say everything there is tied to normal/improved//greater. Call it a one more step forward.

Hardiness
Lesser and Greater? Only true fighter gets the latter (and only once, apparently), while the rest have to be content with the former. Not to mention, it does feel cheap at times when one could have picked about 5-6 of these and takes only half damage during a very long fight, which is far from being uncommon in ToB. 25%, otoh, is still quite a boon, yet not a too big boon.

Deathblow & Gr.Deathblow
I don't really know what to do here. AI sometimes refers to it as summon-killer (Abazigal once had killed a couple of Mordies with it), so changing this into new ability may cause inconsistency. Still I always hated save-or-die stuff. It's worse than fighting goblins at level 1.

Resist Magic
Again, it's never been my favorite. I usually load myself with WWs and some PA/Hardiness for extra fun, and something tells me I'll keep doing so no matter what. Must be my personal style.



All classes

I wouldn't mention it due to possible AI glitches, but I have a feeling it's been already made of suggested for some abilities. Is there a cooldown on some? If yes, then there may be HLAs that allows for unlimited usage of them per day.

Edited by Ardanis, 06 September 2009 - 03:19 PM.

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#5 Demivrgvs

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 03:50 PM

Fighter

View PostArdanis, on Sep 7 2009, 01:14 AM, said:

Quote

What about restricting Greater Whirlwind, Greater Deathblow and Smite to single class fighters only?
Doesn't it goes without being said?
:p

Quote

Quote

A lesser/greter version of the same ability is not a great concept
Can't say I agree. A simple look at 3E can say everything there is tied to normal/improved//greater. Call it a one more step forward.
Yeah, but you don't get the greater version two minutes after the lesser one (as it happens in vanilla for lesser and greater Whirlwind Attack). As I said I don't have much problems with a greater version as long as it's available considerably later, such as 25th level (which makes the multiclass restriction obvious, as a multiclassed fighter can't reach 25th lvl).


Hardiness

Quote

Lesser and Greater? Only true fighter gets the latter (and only once, apparently), while the rest have to be content with the former. Not to mention, it does feel cheap at times when one could have picked about 5-6 of these and takes only half damage during a very long fight, which is far from being uncommon in ToB. 25%, otoh, is still quite a boon, yet not a too big boon.
Interesting solution...a concept similar to what I was going to suggest. I thought about making Toughness a prerequisite for Hardiness, and letting only single class fighters get the latter. I don't know which of the two solutions is better, or better received by players...


Deathblow & Gr.Deathblow

Quote

I don't really know what to do here. AI sometimes refers to it as summon-killer (Abazigal once had killed a couple of Mordies with it), so changing this into new ability may cause inconsistency. Still I always hated save-or-die stuff. It's worse than fighting goblins at level 1.
Yeah, that's why I suggested a solution as similar as possible to the original HLA.


All classes

Quote

I wouldn't mention it due to possible AI glitches, but I have a feeling it's been already made of suggested for some abilities. Is there a cooldown on some? If yes, then there may be HLAs that allows for unlimited usage of them per day.
I hadn't any "cooldown" feature in mind. :)

#6 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 09:49 PM

View PostDemivrgvs, on Sep 6 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

Fighter
This is obvious insanity! Is the thread title something else than Fighter's HLAs? :)

View PostDemivrgvs, on Sep 6 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

View PostArdanis, on Sep 7 2009, 01:14 AM, said:

Quote

What about restricting Greater Whirlwind, Greater Deathblow and Smite to single class fighters only?
Doesn't it goes without being said?
:p
:p

View PostDemivrgvs, on Sep 6 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

A lesser/greter version of the same ability is not a great concept
Can't say I agree. A simple look at 3E can say everything there is tied to normal/improved//greater. Call it a one more step forward.
Yeah, but you don't get the greater version two minutes after the lesser one (as it happens in vanilla for lesser and greater Whirlwind Attack). As I said I don't have much problems with a greater version as long as it's available considerably later, such as 25th level (which makes the multiclass restriction obvious, as a multiclassed fighter can't reach 25th lvl).
Demi has point there, the 3rd Ed has the same kind of improvements for bonus saves as the 2nd Ed has for weapons, but those in the 3rd Ed are far lesser of value cause they are Low Level Abilities able to be gained from level 1 forward, not HLA's that take Years of practice... OK, so the level system in BG is a bit unreal, so the time needs to be adjusted to it.
Yes... I am probably still editing the post above.
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#7 Icendoan

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 07:32 AM

How about Frenzy applying immunity/ridiculous regeneration until expiration, where it lowers your HP to a very small amount? (About 5-10 or so.)

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#8 the bigg

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 07:43 AM

View PostDemivrgvs, on Sep 5 2009, 01:06 PM, said:

I'm going to look into Refinements as it implemented a cap for physical resistance and it may hel us a lot.
It's the obvious scripted solution. Even then, don't bother implementing the cap - getting it over 100% only happens if the player is doing it intentionally, and Refs' solution resulted in characters stuttering when the cap was met (which is worse than simply having an over 100% resistance).
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#9 Dermit

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 06:53 AM

Quote

Resist Magic

Quote

I say, kill it. But that's imo.

Conceptually I agree that this ability doesn't suit true fighters too much (only Wizard Slayers) but at the same time it's clearly a fan favourite and I think RR and SCS do use standard HLAs, and considering what it does this may be a common one.

It may even make some sense that epic fighters develop an innate resistance to spells considering they have faced and have to face uber powerful mages. It' just that for some reason 'magic resistance' seems a little too much a "magical ability" rather than an "innate ability.

I don't like the concept much either. What if instead there were some kind of "heroic fortitude" ability that grants significant bonuses to saving throws, and perhaps a limited resistance to magic damage? This would make more RP sense to me. Think of it as the D&D equivalent of action movie protagonists inexplicable "jump out of explosions" ability.

#10 yarpen

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 04:58 PM

Few random thoughts:
- It's great to see that you like teh idea of making 'greater' abilities available at 25th/30th levels. It introduces a lot of reibalancing to HLA's world. Anyone tried to use Whirlwind earlier?
- Whirlwind's penalties are quite hardcore. What about wind-up effect after this one? So instead of super-round with -4 penalties you can do it as with Greater Whirlwind but for next round you'll got those?
- Deathblow: great, works as coup-de-grace which is severly needed. You can easily finish-off already wounded or very weak enemies. Cool.
- Attacks. Power Attack, Smite etc. I don't like them. There's severe need for something far more epic than stunning attack (Monk can use those for once/2 levels so...). And also, any ideas which are dedicated to bows users? Fighter don't need to use two-handed sword or axe with shield. He should be far more versatile character.
- War Cry: what about adding some morale bonus for allies?
- Magic Resistance: what do you think about changing this one into Iron Will ability which grants to fighter immunity to most of the mind-affecting spells? Usefull as hell, and fits to epic warrior who cannot be controled by anyone.
- In the dire need of something epic, do you remember about my idea of ability which makes warrior immortal for very short duration? That 'd be cool.

#11 yarpen

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 09:40 AM

I've also did some researches about HLAs in AD&D, well, despite the fact that they were starting from level 10th (I'd love to "fix" Baldur's Gate to work with 30th level tables) there are some interesting ideas there. I won't copy whole descriptions of them, but I've wrote a sort of implementation on Infinity Engine for them. I hope that some of those ideas are interesting.

Warrior's HLAs
(Armor) Adaptation*: grants immunity to armor encumbrance
All-around Attack: deals area damage after succesfull melee attack against one enemy
Bravery: grants immunity to fear and morale failure
Deathblow: slays creature with less than 90HP on hit; save vs. death negates
Frighten: imbues enemies with fear
Hardiness*: warrior cannot die from HP loss in next 3 rounds
Inner Focus: raises STR, DEX and CON

Priest's HLAs
Divine Strenght: bonus to WIS, STR, CHA
Divine Voice: mass enthrall-hold creatures
Divine Will: immunity to mind-affecting spells
Eminence: imbues enemies with fear
Invincibility*: priest cannot die from HP loss in next 3 rounds
Loan: transfers up to 4d6+8 hit points to another creature
Smite: powerfull damaging spell with variety of effects
Spell Talisman*: spell sequencer for priests
Quest spells: there is one for every sphere, most of them are really good and it's strange why they weren't implemented

Rogue's HLAs
Adaptation*: allows to use any item for next 1 round/2 levels
Evasion: exactly as in Rogue Rebalancing
Improvised Attack: applies variety off effects: blinding, disarm, immobilise, kill, stun, trip to attacks
Inner Focus: raises DEX, INT and CON
Nondetection: grants permanent non-detection
Shadow Jump*: allows to make teleports at night
Using Scrolls: allows to use scrolls with 15% failure chance

* Far, far away from PnP versions which were far more 'roleplaying'

Edited by yarpen, 28 October 2010 - 09:53 AM.


#12 Demivrgvs

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 10:19 AM

View Postyarpen, on Oct 28 2010, 07:40 PM, said:

I've also did some researches about HLAs in AD&D, well, despite the fact that they were starting from level 10th (I'd love to "fix" Baldur's Gate to work with 30th level tables) there are some interesting ideas there. I won't copy whole descriptions of them, but I've wrote a sort of implementation on Infinity Engine for them. I hope that some of those ideas are interesting.
I need some time to think before replying to your post (and I also missed the previous one sorry), but in the meanwhile, could you tell me what were your sources? Despite the absurd amount of D&D books I've read in my life I don't remember many HLA sources (except one, and I don't even remember its name right now).

#13 yarpen

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 10:53 AM

It's DM Option: High-Level Campaigns. I think those were inspiration for Bioware when they were creating HLAs system for Throne of Bhaal.

#14 Demivrgvs

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 04:41 PM

View Postyarpen, on Oct 28 2010, 08:53 PM, said:

It's DM Option: High-Level Campaigns. I think those were inspiration for Bioware when they were creating HLAs system for Throne of Bhaal.
Thanks, I've read it a little (I do homeworks you know :) ).

View Postyarpen, on Oct 28 2010, 07:40 PM, said:

I've also did some researches about HLAs in AD&D, well, despite the fact that they were starting from level 10th (I'd love to "fix" Baldur's Gate to work with 30th level tables) there are some interesting ideas there. I won't copy whole descriptions of them, but I've wrote a sort of implementation on Infinity Engine for them. I hope that some of those ideas are interesting.

Warrior's HLAs
(Armor) Adaptation*: grants immunity to armor encumbrance
All-around Attack: deals area damage after succesfull melee attack against one enemy
Bravery: grants immunity to fear and morale failure
Deathblow: slays creature with less than 90HP on hit; save vs. death negates
Frighten: imbues enemies with fear
Hardiness*: warrior cannot die from HP loss in next 3 rounds
Inner Focus: raises STR, DEX and CON

* Far, far away from PnP versions which were far more 'roleplaying'
I don't want to sound arrogant but it seems like I already covered most of them without knowing. :cringe:

As I said in our last private discussion "Adaptation" is not implementable. All-around Attack is something I'd like to do in order to make the two Whirlwind Attack HLAs a little different, but I'd need a proper animation. Bravery is indeed a fine HLA, and makes sense for most epic warriors to be immune to such effect. Deathblow as a coupe-de-grace attack is what I already suggested, though the opcode is hardcoded to affect creatures with less then 60hp not 90. Speaking of its PnP version, it really makes more sense than BG one because it has no HD cap, but affects any creature with less HD than the warrior, and that may be kept as per my suggestion for the Greater Deathblow (though with only 1 round duration not vanilla's 2, because in PnP it's actually a single attack!). Frighten is more or less already there in the form of War Cry, and I also suggested the Frightening Presence for Berserkers. It's quite ironical to find out that PnP Hardiness has NOTHING to do with BG one, it's actually the opposite! PnP Hardiness is a sort of "always make a save against a powerful magical effect at your choice once per day". Anyway, your idea is interesting, and I actually thought about it too (or was it Ardanis?), though not for Hardiness but for Berserker's Deathless Frenzy. Inner Focus would be a sort of Draw Upon Divine Might, not sure I like so much the concept for fighters.

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Magic Resistance: what do you think about changing this one into Iron Will ability which grants to fighter immunity to most of the mind-affecting spells? Usefull as hell, and fits to epic warrior who cannot be controled by anyone.
I had in mind to use Iron Will as an HLA somewhere, though I didn't know how, because as a passive permanent bonus it would need to be slipt into at least 3 HLAs imo. As a once/day Chaotic Command-like ability makes sense, but I'm not sure. That being said, I do hate the silly magic resistance concept (are these martial warriors or what?!), but we need to make sure we don't screw the AI changing it, thus it has to remain a sort of anti-magic effect (e.g. your solution is almost fine). My idea was to make similar to PnP Hardiness, a short duration effect that allow the warrior to successful make every save.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 28 October 2010 - 04:51 PM.


#15 yarpen

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:12 PM

Adaptation
Which adaptation isn't possible to apply? About thieves version I've seen it already in one mod called Kit Improvements. I'm not sure about it working fine, but for me change is just fine. For Armor Adaptation, well... we discussed it a bit, and I wanted to also hear Ardanis's opinion about that. I mean externalisation of penalties to .spl file which is probably repetated once per round and such an HLA would grant to Warrior immunity to all of those .spl files. I know that on weaker PCs it would probably make game unplayable. Dang.

All-round attack
If you want to leave Whirlwind attack, I'm reminding about my humble suggestion (about granting penalties from Whirlwind AFTER round with all of those attacks). Still, for All-round attack I've thought that Whirlwind's animation would just do the thing.

Bravery
For me looks certainly to weak. I'd still prefer Iron Will HLA which grants immunity to mind-affecting spells AND fear. And why not making it Permanent?

Deathblow
Well, making it an single attack only would make sense. Avenger this such a thing for his Assassin's Death Attack, used some damn Secondary Types and Shells about which I've got no idea. And I know you're using those too (with Ardanis's support). :cringe:

Hardiness
Well, that's one of the solutions for Hardiness, because there is second part/method of usage which was inspiration for my implementation of this one.

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Heroic Effort: As a last-ditch effort to continue a battle, a fighter can use the hardiness skill to extend his life. Instead of dying at zero hit points (or falling unconscious at zero hit points and dying at –10 if the optional Hovering at Death’s Door rule is in play), a warrior who makes a successful hardiness check can continue fighting until reaching –20 hit points. The character can function in this state for a number of rounds equal to his delay effect, suffering the appropriate consequences for reduced hit points at the end of the delay.
Use of this skill is not without its drawbacks, however. If the warrior is reduced to –20 hit points or less, the character is struck unconscious and dies once the delay expires. Once a character’s hit points drop to –20 or less, death is inevitable at the end of the delay period unless unusual conditions exist (see below).
Curative spells can allow a warrior struck unconscious by being reduced –20 hit points or less to rejoin a battle, but death still occurs at the end of the delay period. A raise dead or resurrection spell cast during the delay period prevents death from occurring.
It is possible that a character with the ability to regenerate (from a magical item or high Constitution score) can continue fighting even after being reduced to –20 hit points or less. If regeneration increases the warrior’s hit points to –19 or more during the delay period, the character regains consciousness and does not die if he receives enough healing to restore him to positive hit points before the delay ends. Even if death occurs, regeneration usually restores a character much more quickly than the rest period the hardiness skill requires. A character returned to life through regeneration need not make a system shock roll.
An amulet of life protection also allows a warrior to continue fighting after being reduced to –20 hit points or less if the character receives sufficient healing to restore him to –19 hit points or more. The character still lapses back into death at the end of the delay period, but any form of magical healing can restore him to life (see page 79) and no system shock roll is required.

Also there is a nice touch of Requirement of Bravery ability. Iron Will would work for this one too.

Inner Focus
Well, it's a part of PnP HLAs system that's why I've brought this one but personally I dislike it too. Too weak for HLA effect.




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