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IR V3 - List of changes from V2 to V3


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#1231 Ardanis

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

Darkfire Bow +4/+5
It's Darkfire Shield ability actually casts twin Fireshields, resulting in higher (much so with SR installed) damage than stated 5 fire/cold.
To save the trouble of dynamic description updating, what if it's changed to a custom SPL, with 50% fire/cold res, 5 magic damage, stackable with wizard Fireshields?

@Ardanis, how things are going on your side? :)

Right now I'm updating IR+SR compatibility (different spell names).

Edited by Ardanis, 06 March 2012 - 11:34 AM.

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Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#1232 Demivrgvs

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:45 AM

@Ardanis, how things are going on your side? :)

Right now I'm updating IR+SR compatibility (different spell names).

Eh?

Darkfire Bow +4/+5

It's Darkfire Shield ability actually casts twin Fireshields, resulting in higher (much so with SR installed) damage than stated 5 fire/cold.
To save the trouble of dynamic description updating, what if it's changed to a custom SPL, with 50% fire/cold res, 5 magic damage, stackable with wizard Fireshields?

Actually I thought it already had a custom spl! Strange, I seem to remember working on it, we'll look into it asap.

#1233 Ardanis

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:04 PM

@Ardanis, how things are going on your side? :)

Right now I'm updating IR+SR compatibility (different spell names).

Eh?

Primarily DUHM/DUDM, because atm it is only the tooltip that checks for a different name.
"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#1234 Quester

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

I think potion prices have been lowered too much. Especially healing potions, which are now a mere pittance. You should still have to think about whether it's the right time to use a potion. As it is with these prices you can pretty much just buy up all the healing potions you see in every store and gulp them down at the slightest injury. 25gp for a regular healing potion is just way too low. The prices of the other types of healing potions are also too low, though not as much as the regular kind.

#1235 Quester

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

Suggested changes:

Potion of Healing: 50 gp. Maybe 60 gp.

Potion of Extra Healing: 200 gp.

Potion of Superior Healing: 350 gp. Also, reduce the amount it heals from 50 to 45.

Potion of Fire Giant Strength: 600 gp.

Potion of Insulation Resistance: shouldn't this be called just potion of insulation? since it's not about resisting insulation? Insulation is good, right?

Potion of Defense is repeated twice in the item index. The second one should be Potion of Speed, I think? Also, I think it should be 300 gp (potion of speed that is).

Potion of Explosions: 300 gp.

Potion Mirrored Eyes: typo, -> of.

Potion of Stone Form: I get the feeling that this would be extremely overpowered, especially at such a low price? But please elaborate what "five layers of stoneskin" result in.

Potion of Toughness: a typo: drinkers should be drinker's.

Other than that, things look well balanced and priced according to power level and general usefulness.

#1236 Demivrgvs

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:07 AM

I think potion prices have been lowered too much. Especially healing potions, which are now a mere pittance. You should still have to think about whether it's the right time to use a potion. As it is with these prices you can pretty much just buy up all the healing potions you see in every store and gulp them down at the slightest injury. 25gp for a regular healing potion is just way too low. The prices of the other types of healing potions are also too low, though not as much as the regular kind.

Are you speaking on paper or after playtesting? I'd really like to have feedback on this matter from players who have actually played a game with V3!

Btw, if you're only speaking "on paper", take into account that IR removes reputation's 50% discount thus to compare the prices you should have to either halve vanilla's ones or double IR's ones. On top of that, I'm pretty sure Ardanis made pretty much all stores slightly less "customer-friendly". So the difference between is much smaller than you think, and afaik most players (including me) almost never bought potions in vanilla because they were considered too much expensive for what they offered.

#1237 Quester

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:21 AM

Yes, I'm speaking from playtesting, though only in the early game so far. But I've noticed that 25 gp for regular healing potions just seems like I can afford all I could ever want of those. They're just too cheap, and especially so since they actual heal an additional hp compared to vanilla.

#1238 Demivrgvs

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 11:49 AM

Thanks for reporting the typos on the item index Quester, I've fixed them now. :)

Yes, I'm speaking from playtesting, though only in the early game so far.

Great, that's the best feedback possible. :) Speaking of which, are you also using Store Revisions component?

Healing potions

Potion of Healing: 50 gp. Maybe 60 gp.

Potion of Extra Healing: 200 gp.

Potion of Superior Healing: 350 gp. Also, reduce the amount it heals from 50 to 45.

Those prices would actually make healing potions more expensive than they were in vanilla! I want to encourage their use compared to vanilla experience, not lessen it. :(

I've noticed that 25 gp for regular healing potions just seems like I can afford all I could ever want of those. They're just too cheap, and especially so since they actual heal an additional hp compared to vanilla.

First of all let's remember that with vanilla's easy 50% discount (which we don't have at all within IR) their base price actually was 37,5gp, thus the actual difference between IR and vanilla is 12gp (not so much in BG2 terms).

Are you playing BG2 or BG1? Within the former you probably can buy them as much as you want indeed, but I don't see it as a problem because they are not much effective in the middle of a battle.

Spellcasters are the only ones that can still find 10hp important within BG2 imo, and they cannot cast a spell and drink a potion in the same round, preventing any possible abuse of them during a battle. BG2 warriors instead could indeed fill their slots with lesser healing potions and potentially use them continuosly (as they rarely need to spend the "action token per round" using innates or special abilites), but aren't 10hp too little to really brake the balance of a melee encounter between high lvl fighters? If yes, wouldn't that be possible (albeit much more expensive) even if those potion costed 12gp more?

Potion of Fire Giant Strength

Potion of Fire Giant Strength: 600 gp.

Not much difference between my suggested 550. :) Anyway, it cannot cost 100-150gp more than Potion of Frost Giant Strength imo, because the differecne between STR 21 and STR 22 is only +1 dmg! Long story short, unless you also think lesser versions of this potion are too cheap this one surely isn't. :D

Potion of Speed

Also, I think it should be 300 gp (potion of speed that is).

Well, undispellable haste is indeed a powerful effect, if most players think it deserves to cost 300gp instead of the current 250 fine with me. :)

Potion of Explosions

Potion of Explosions: 300 gp.

I don't know, this potion isn't even so much appealing in the first place imo except within BG1 (in fact I left it unchanged only because I feared I could make it unbalanced for BG1). Mmm...

Potion of Stone Form

I get the feeling that this would be extremely overpowered, especially at such a low price? But please elaborate what "five layers of stoneskin" result in.

It pratically means imbiber is immune to the next 5 physical attacks. Any fighter-mage can cast it for free multiple times per day, whereas a fighter "consumes" 500-750gp (depending on the store and leader's charisma) every time he uses it, and gold should be much less "dispendable" within IR compared to vanilla. It shouldn't be extremely OP unless stocking TONS of these potions makes it too much exploitable during certain encounters (but wouldn't that apply to the actual spell too?). Are you finding yourself able to buy them as much as you want so easily?

Various

Other than that, things look well balanced and priced according to power level and general usefulness.

Good. :)

Edited by Demivrgvs, 10 March 2012 - 11:15 PM.


#1239 Salk

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:43 PM

It was some time ago but when I played with IR (BG1 part in BGT), I found the prices of potions very sensible and I wouldn't wish them changed.

I was also using the Stores Revision component though.

#1240 Ardanis

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:25 AM

Yes, I'm speaking from playtesting, though only in the early game so far. But I've noticed that 25 gp for regular healing potions just seems like I can afford all I could ever want of those. They're just too cheap, and especially so since they actual heal an additional hp compared to vanilla.

I think it is due to early game. I've been playtesting potions and stores year and a half ago, and while I could finally afford to buy them, they were still consuming precious gold.

IR's main component imo quite succeeds in turning vanilla unique +X items into diverse selection, all useful in various situations. This in turn is an incentive to buy more equipment from merchants (as opposed to finding 95% of it in loot), and you also may consider to keep loot instead of selling it right away. On top of that, stores are slightly more expensive compared to vanilla.

Potions are cheap, but if you start buying them all, you may eventually find yourself broke after, say, paying a visit to Adventurer's Mart in Ch.6.
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Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#1241 Dakk

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 05:51 PM

In regards to healing potions, and this based on (BG1) paper as I've not played far enough with current IR-prices, I like both the small additional healing and small reduction in price that IR offers. Even if the price for healing potions would be somewhat too low (from a lore-perspective? gamebalance?) I much prefer "abusing" potions than dito sleeping. In battle potions surely are not overpowered, so it basically comes down to the economics - and the competition works for free: cleric spells. If you can't afford to buy potions, the alternative is to rest.

TL;DR:
Popping healing potions and continue dungeoncrawling > memorize Heal Light Wounds, sleep, memorize offensive spells, sleep, continue.

#1242 Shaitan

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:05 PM

It was some time ago but when I played with IR (BG1 part in BGT), I found the prices of potions very sensible and I wouldn't wish them changed.

I was also using the Stores Revision component though.

Me Too.

I was sorry that the potionspart couldn't be installed on tutu last time I did my installation (the stand-alone potion revision worked better that way) so testing in BG1 is out of my reach. However in BG2 (untill late chap 2) I only had a good time with the new potions prize-wise and use-wise. I symphatize with Dakk's thoughts also.
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