58 replies to this topic

[Demivrgvs]

Considering we were talking more about these kits than SR within SR forums I've decided to open this topic. Anyway both SR V3 and IR V3 take precedence for now. Keep in mind these are clearly underdeveloped compared to what we can do, but at least I'll show you the Domain spells available to the original three kits.


True Cleric

Class Features:
- Can be proficient (+) in any blunt weapon.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Rolls d8 for hit points.
- Can Turn Undead
- Can cast divine spells from 1st to 7th spell level.

Note:
- True Cleric will have one spell per level more than kitted clerics (it's not mentioned because it's actually a kit disadvantage)
- if you ask me I'd allow true clerics to use most weapons (they use a heavy flail and they can't wield a dagger?!). This coul also allow us to assign some restriction to kits (e.g. Morninglords may only use blunt weapons as per vanilla's cleric). Anyway, I'd still consider some weapons unsuitable for a true cleric who doesn't have a proper fighter training: bows, greatsword, katana, halberd, and similar weapons. I haven't thought too much about it, but suggesting this won't hurt anyone.


Morninglord of Lathander

Advantages:
- May cast Lathander's Renewal once per day (cures 2hp per level of the caster up to 40 hit points)
- (2nd granted power has to be decided)
- At 1st level, can cast Sunscorch once per day
- At 3rd level, can cast Spiritual Weapon (Mace - "Dawnspeaker") once per day
- At 5th level, can cast Hold Undead once per day
- At 7th level, can cast Negative Plane Protection once per day
- At 9th level, can cast Sunfire once per day
- At 11th level, can cast False Dawn once per day
- At 14th level, can cast Sunray once per day

Disadvantages:
- Can memorize one spell less per day at each spell level.

Note:
- I still haven't decided exactly how each spiritual weapon works and if they need custom effects or not.
- Lathander domains are Sun, Good, Renewal and Protection.
- Morninglords of Lathander must be of Lawful Good, Neutral God or Chaotic Good.
- In PnP most of his powers and special abilities are about undead and healing abilities. IWD used a once per day ability Lathander's Renewal (as paladin's Lay on Hands) and an improved turn undead feat which isn't implementable within BG. I'm open to suggestions, for the second granted power, though the ability to turn undead itself could be it considering we're suggesting to remove such ability to other kits.
- My second choices at each spell level are: 1st Faerie Fire; 2nd -; 3rd Holy Smite; 4th Lesser Restoration; 5th -; 6th Heal; 7th Greater Restoration.


Watchers of Helm

Advantages:
- Iron Will (+3 to saves vs. spell)
- (2nd granted power has to be decided)
- At 1st level, can cast Armor of Faith once per day
- At 3rd level, can cast Spiritual Weapon (Bastard Sword - "Ever Watchful") once per day
- At 5th level, can cast Clairvoyance once per day
- At 7th level, can cast Defensive Harmony once per day
- At 9th level, can cast True Sight once per day
- At 11th level, can cast Globe of Invulnerability once per day
- At 14th level, can cast Mantle once per day

Disadvantages:
- Can memorize one spell less per day at each spell level.

Note:
- Helm domains are Law, Planning, Protection and Strength.
- Watchers oh Helm must be of Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral or True Neutral alignment.
- IWD used two once per day abilities, one improves saves by 2, the other improves AC by 2 (+4 vs. missiles) and both last 1 round/level. The latter to me sounds like a weaker Shield, which we may instead grant as domain spell at 1st level. The former can be turned into a permanent bonus to saves (similar to paladins).
- My second choices at each spell level are: 1st Protection from Evil; 2nd -; 3rd Glyph of Warding; 4th Death Ward; 5th -; 6th Blade Barrier; 7th -.


Stormlords of Talos

Advantages:
- Electrical Resistance (we have to decide its % and how it improves with levels)
- (2nd granted power has to be decided)
- At 1st level, can cast Shocking Grasp once per day
- At 3rd level, can cast Spiritual Weapon (Spear - "Lightning Bolt") once per day
- At 5th level, can cast Storm Shield once per day
- At 7th level, can cast Ice Storm once per day
- At 9th level, can cast Chaos once per day
- At 11th level, can cast Chain Lightning once per day
- At 14th level, can cast Earthquake once per day

Disadvantages:
- Can memorize one spell less per day at each spell level.

Note:
- Talos domains are Storm, Chaos, Destruction and Fire.
- Stormolords must be of Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil.
- Looking at IWD as granted powers we have electrical resistance and a once per day ability, "Destructive Blow" which improves thaco and damage by 2 for 1 round/level. In PnP the Stormlord Prestige class have a quite high Electrical Resistance which goes up and the ability to grant Shocking, Thundering, and Shocking Burst abilities to his favored weapon (spear or javelin). The latter could be implemented as a once per day ability, though actually I'd prefer to save it as a permanent on hit ability granted by HLAs.
- My second choices at each spell level are: 1st Doom; 2nd -; 3rd Call Lightning; 4th Cloak of Fear; 5th Slay Living; 6th Disintegration; 7th Fire Storm.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 24 June 2009 - 01:26 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

The Kit's don't have their BG2 original advantages(the few custom spells)? What &%¤ is this. I would never limit myself to few spells I could have with a normal cleric without the kit. And you should realize the day has 3*8 hour sleeping turns, so the kit's loose a lot... Yes, I tried to be funny, so don't take it personally if you just overlooked that.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 23 June 2009 - 10:40 AM.

[yarpen]

Personally I think that you should think about this revision as a platform for new kits, these would be utterly cool because Divine Remixes with full regards is a long way from being playable thanks to Sphere system and lack of attention from authors. Nightcloack of Shar for Viconia and Battleguard for Branwen!

I think that when you're so flexxible with changing class weapon restriction, I think we can divide clerics into three group: battlepriests, pilgrims and scholars. First group is capable of using all of armours and can use some of weapons such as axes, swords etc. Pilgrims cannot wear platemails, and can fight only with blunt weapons. Scholars are limited to robes and wizard weapons, but they possess greatest powers. Whatcha think about that?

[Ardanis]

I kinda agree with Jarno. So far it appears that unkitted priests are superior to kits, as they can use their extra spell slot for any purpose, unlike domain slots.

1) Kits can get the second (or even the third, though that's probably too much) round of domain slots per level (starting from 15-16 level), approximately at the same pace as the first round
2) Extra abilities, like Morninglords having +2 thaco/damage against undead and Stormlords having 50% elec resistance. Rough, but you get the idea

Quote

I think that when you're so flexxible with changing class weapon restriction, I think we can divide clerics into three group: battlepriests, pilgrims and scholars. First group is capable of using all of armours and can use some of weapons such as axes, swords etc. Pilgrims cannot wear platemails, and can fight only with blunt weapons. Scholars are limited to robes and wizard weapons, but they possess greatest powers.

I likes Battle ones may suffer -1 spell/lvl penalty, scholars instead - +1 spell/lvl.


PS I'm also of the opinion that priests should be normally limited to chainmail only, but sadly it may create inconsistency with many plate-wearing guys, both vanilla and mods.

Edited by Ardanis, 23 June 2009 - 11:41 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

Jarno Mikkola, on Jun 23 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

The Kit's don't have their BG2 original advantages(the few custom spells)? What &%¤ is this. I would never limit myself to few spells I could have with a normal cleric without the kit. And you should realize the day has 3*8 hour sleeping turns, so the kit's loose a lot... Yes, I tried to be funny, so don't take it personally.

First of all, haven't you noticed the "these are clearly underdeveloped" part of my premise? I'll propose a few things asap.

Regarding your "I would never limit myself to few spells I could have with a normal cleric without the kit" part: 6 out of 7 Morninglord's domain spells aren't available to a "normal" cleric, and 7 out of 7 Stormlord's domain spells aren't availabe to a true cleric. Watcher of Helm is the more limited (we may add Shield at 1st level), but I'd doubt spells like Globe of Invulnerability and Mantle can be considered common cleric spells.

And regarding the "you should realize the day has 3*8 hour sleeping turns, so the kit's loose a lot" part: you should realize that as for every other "once per day" resting would also give you 3x domain spells!

yarpen, on Jun 23 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

Personally I think that you should think about this revision as a platform for new kits, these would be utterly cool because Divine Remixes with full regards is a long way from being playable thanks to Sphere system and lack of attention from authors. Nightcloack of Shar for Viconia and Battleguard for Branwen!

yarpen, on Jun 23 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

I think that when you're so flexxible with changing class weapon restriction, I think we can divide clerics into three group: battlepriests, pilgrims and scholars. First group is capable of using all of armours and can use some of weapons such as axes, swords etc. Pilgrims cannot wear platemails, and can fight only with blunt weapons. Scholars are limited to robes and wizard weapons, but they possess greatest powers. Whatcha think about that?

Ardanis, on Jun 23 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

I likes

Me too. I think Mike had something like that in mind too (which would help as I'm counting on him to build all these codes to change weapon restrictions everywhere ). I wouldn't stardandize the concept too much, but more or less it would be cool to work on this way imo.

Ardanis, on Jun 23 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

I kinda agree with Jarno. So far it appears that unkitted priests are superior to kits, as they can use their extra spell slot for any purpose, unlike domain slots.

1) Kits can get the second (or even the third, though that's probably too much) round of domain slots per level (starting from 15-16 level), approximately at the same pace as the first round
2) Extra abilities, like Morninglords having +2 thaco/damage against undead and Stormlords having 50% elec resistance. Rough, but you get the idea

Like Yarpen perceived those are only base templates, we still have to build these classes together.

1) No, for reasons I've just exposed in a recent post in SR forums.
2) yeah, that's exactly what I already had in mind. I'll post a few suggestions soon.

Ardanis, on Jun 23 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

PS I'm also of the opinion that priests should be normally limited to chainmail only, but sadly it may create inconsistency with many plate-wearing guys, both vanilla and mods.

Well, splint mails is medium armor but looks like plate mails.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 23 June 2009 - 11:55 AM.

[yarpen]

When create these 3 archetypes you can cover most of deities. Battlepriest model looks fine for Iyachtu Xwim, Tempus, Torm, Tyr, Corellon Larethian etc. Pilgrim model for Selune, Lathander etc. etc. and Scholar model for example for Mystra, Eldath - and that's how is it going. And these limitations allows to grant some additional deity powers. Cleric of Kossuth without fire resistance isn't Cleric of Kossuth

Personally I was working on other type of cleric revision. Instead of "devoted to" kits I've planned to create these three kits: Crusader/Battlepriest, Pilgrim and Scholar. And they could choose their deity by obtaining holy symbol of god. Which after 1st use is impossible to wear down, with exception of 6th level magic. And these magic symbols were giving to character some minor bonuses, and allowed them to cast spells or turn undead. It also worked with Divine Remixes system sphere: holy symbol granted to you one/two additional spheres - and one of most important kits attributes were these spheres. But huh, I'm capable only of planning.

[Jarno Mikkola]

yarpen, on Jun 23 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

archetypes

Well, I could see the player going through somekind of quest which determined which way the player wants to have the cleric go and then reward the player according to the path. But truthfully, I only see two paths, the lighter armored with few more spells, and heavy armored and armed "fighter" with few less spells, like with no wisdom bonuses.

[Aranthys]

Instead of modifying the proficiencies, which could cause some major imbalances, how about making the Spiritual Weapons actual summoned weapons that vary depending on the level of the cleric, kinda like the revised morphing paws ?

Morninglord of Lathander's weapon would grant bonus against undead creatures.
Watchers of Helm weapon would grant fighting bonuses.
Stormlords of Talos would deal additional elemental damage, protection from the elements & so on.

Since it's a revision, I don't think the goal is to implement many kits, but instead to make the current kits interesting.

[Ardanis]

Quote

1) No, for reasons I've just exposed in a recent post in SR forums.

I meant only extra uses of already available domain spell, not new spells. Like having this picture at 20th level:

Sunscorch - 2/day
Spiritual Weapon - 2/day
Hold Undead - 1/day
Negative Plane Protection - 1/day
Sunfire - 1/day
False Dawn - 1/day
Sunray - 1/day

Quote

Personally I was working on other type of cleric revision. Instead of "devoted to" kits I've planned to create these three kits: Crusader/Battlepriest, Pilgrim and Scholar. And they could choose their deity by obtaining holy symbol of god. Which after 1st use is impossible to wear down, with exception of 6th level magic. And these magic symbols were giving to character some minor bonuses, and allowed them to cast spells or turn undead. It also worked with Divine Remixes system sphere: holy symbol granted to you one/two additional spheres - and one of most important kits attributes were these spheres. But huh, I'm capable only of planning.

Again, I likes the concept

[Demivrgvs]

Aranthys, on Jun 23 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

Instead of modifying the proficiencies, which could cause some major imbalances, how about making the Spiritual Weapons actual summoned weapons that vary depending on the level of the cleric, kinda like the revised morphing paws ?

Morninglord of Lathander's weapon would grant bonus against undead creatures.
Watchers of Helm weapon would grant fighting bonuses.
Stormlords of Talos would deal additional elemental damage, protection from the elements & so on.

As I said I haven't decided yet how to implement spiritual weapons. One solution could be the one you're suggesting, but at the same time those weapons would take away possible class features, or unique weapons features (e.g. Mace of Disruption's background states that such a weapon is a favored weapon of clerics of Lathander, but if such a cleric can cast the same weapon once per day the appeal is somewhat limited imo). The solution I'd probably adopt is to make it as per SR Spiritual Hammer.

Aranthys, on Jun 23 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

Since it's a revision, I don't think the goal is to implement many kits, but instead to make the current kits interesting.

You're right, in fact my main goal are only the three original kits (and the true cleric somewhat). Then, if I have the time I'd like to implement kits "necessary" for some NPCs like Nightcloak of Shar for Viconia and Battleguard of Tempus for Branwen.

Ardanis, on Jun 24 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

Quote

1) No, for reasons I've just exposed in a recent post in SR forums.

I meant only extra uses of already available domain spell, not new spells.

I'm quite against it for balance purposes. The domain spell slot is supposed to partially make up for the spell slot less they have compared to true clerics, not to outshine it by having more use per day on top of spells not available to true clerics. Remember we're also going to give special "granted powers" to kitted clerics.


Granted Powers

Morninglord of Lathander
In PnP most of his powers and special abilities are about undead and healing abilities. IWD used a once per day ability Lathander's Renewal (as paladin's Lay on Hands) and an improved undead feats which isn't implementable within BG. I'm open to suggestions, for the second granted power, though the ability to turn undead itself could be it considering we're suggesting to remove such ability to other kits.


Watcher of Helm
His domains are Law, Protection and Strength. IWD used two once per day abilities, one improves saves by 2, the other improves AC by 2 (+4 vs. missiles) and both last 1 round/level. The latter to me sounds like a weaker Shield, which we may instead grant as domain spell at 1st level. The former cn be turned into a permanent bonus to saves (similar to paladins).


Stormlord of Talos
Looking at IWD we have electrical resistance and a once per day ability, "Destructive Blow" which improves thaco and damage by 2 for 1 round/level. In PnP the Stormlord Prestige class have a quite high Electrical Resistance which goes up and the ability to grant Shocking, Thundering, and Shocking Burst abilities to his favored weapon (spear or javelin). The latter could be implemented as a once per day ability, though actually I'd prefer to save it as a permanent on hit ability granted by HLAs.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 24 June 2009 - 12:17 AM.

[Ardanis]

Morninglord of Lathander
Can't recall what IWD's undead feat was. Lesser Undead Bane as per IR's +2 thaco & +8 damage, halved for the balance purpose to +1/+4?


Watcher of Helm
Perm +2 to all saves sounds too much. I'd say either +1 to all, or +2 vs spells/death/whatever.
As for 1/day, does Contingency fits in the concept? I think it does somehow, but it's still more about foresight than 'vigilance'.

Stormlord of Talos

Quote

the ability to grant Shocking, Thundering, and Shocking Burst abilities to his favored weapon (spear or javelin). The latter could be implemented as a once per day ability, though actually I'd prefer to save it as a permanent on hit ability granted by HLAs.

It can be 1/day at first, then made permanent by a HLA.

[Demivrgvs]

Morninglord of Lathander

Ardanis, on Jun 24 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

Can't recall what IWD's undead feat was. Lesser Undead Bane as per IR's +2 thaco & +8 damage, halved for the balance purpose to +1/+4?

Yeah, but these bonuses don't stack, I'll probably have remove them from Undead Hunter and Cavalier too, else weapons like Mace of Disruption, Daystar, and Dragonslayer (which seem incredibly appropriate for these classes) are completly useless. The other solution would be a "protection from undead" feature (+x AC and saves vs. undead), but I don't know how to verify if this bonus can stack.


Watcher of Helm

Quote

Perm +2 to all saves sounds too much. I'd say either +1 to all, or +2 vs spells/death/whatever.
As for 1/day, does Contingency fits in the concept? I think it does somehow, but it's still more about foresight than 'vigilance'.

Well, +2 at 1st level would surely be too much, but perhaps a +1 which becomes +2 at higher levels would not.

Contingency seems out of place imo, and a much more suitable domain spell choice for a Cleric of Mystra.


Stormlord of Talos

Quote

Quote

the ability to grant Shocking, Thundering, and Shocking Burst abilities to his favored weapon (spear or javelin). The latter could be implemented as a once per day ability, though actually I'd prefer to save it as a permanent on hit ability granted by HLAs.

It can be 1/day at first, then made permanent by a HLA.

I never thought about this...I'll think about it.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 24 June 2009 - 12:20 AM.

[yarpen]

Watcher of Helm
Could be a Strong Will effect: +3 to saves vs. spells? Followers of Helm are enemies of arcane magic, Helm slayed Mystra so that's how it looks. Improved save vs. spells grants them better resistance against mind-affecting spells, and so on, true Watcher cannot be held or charmed, he's always watching!

If ability can be a bit more powerfull... I'd grant him immunity to backstab. Watchers cannot be surprised, are always suspicious and in shadows there's always thug's blade which wants to rip his Watcher armour. Oh, and there even could be a more interesting advantage. In PnP sources Watchers after their ritual got granted special, shiny platemail which granted them bonuses. That could be interesting, if properly made in BG2 - at start Watcher of Helm is quite more powerfull than the rest of band, got his unique +1 Plate Mail. But later he would love to wear this utterly cool Delver's Plate - and he cannot. Even if his mail gets some improvements trough levels.

Lathander
I think that healing isn't as important for Lathander as RESTORING - and that's a bit of difference. Healing is IMO finer for potential Ilmater kit, who's natural healer. Lathander is about restoration, sun and hates undeads but only thanks to power of Sun - naturall undead's slayer is Kelemorv. Maybe something connected to Regeneration?

[Demivrgvs]

Watcher of Helm

yarpen, on Jun 24 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

Could be a Strong Will effect: +3 to saves vs. spells? Followers of Helm are enemies of arcane magic, Helm slayed Mystra so that's how it looks. Improved save vs. spells grants them better resistance against mind-affecting spells, and so on, true Watcher cannot be held or charmed, he's always watching!

I like it, more balanced and probably even more appropriate than my proposed +1 to saves.

P.S I was just watching NWN2 domains, and Law domain grants Iron Will.

Quote

If ability can be a bit more powerfull... I'd grant him immunity to backstab. Watchers cannot be surprised, are always suspicious and in shadows there's always thug's blade which wants to rip his Watcher armour.

Immunity to blindness and backstab actually are my first choices as granted powers for Nightcloaks of Shar (Darkness domain).

Quote

Oh, and there even could be a more interesting advantage. In PnP sources Watchers after their ritual got granted special, shiny platemail which granted them bonuses. That could be interesting, if properly made in BG2 - at start Watcher of Helm is quite more powerfull than the rest of band, got his unique +1 Plate Mail. But later he would love to wear this utterly cool Delver's Plate - and he cannot. Even if his mail gets some improvements trough levels.

It seems a little too "complicate".


Lathander

Quote

I think that healing isn't as important for Lathander as RESTORING - and that's a bit of difference. Healing is IMO finer for potential Ilmater kit, who's natural healer. Lathander is about restoration, sun and hates undeads but only thanks to power of Sun - naturall undead's slayer is Kelemorv. Maybe something connected to Regeneration?

Are you suggesting a small regeneration rate? It may make sense, but it's an incredibly "convenient" effect imo.

Morninglords Lay on Hands ability may actually harm undead if we want (up to 40 points of magic damage with no save should be neither unbalanced nor too weak).