75 replies to this topic

[Demivrgvs]

When it comes to the ranger classes I'd say we have a slightly underpowered and underused base class, with an outstanding kit (Archer), a very interesting one (Stalker), and a potentially cool concept wasted with an incredibly weak implementation (Beast Master). As always I'd like to discuss what has to be done to make sure we can please as much players as we can while maintaining the goal to rebalance the classes.


True Ranger
"Rangers are often stereotyped as wild frontiersmen and are thought of as woodland hunters of deadly prey, skilled in wilderness lore. This is not, however, true of all rangers and others are more at home within ancient ruins, vast deserts, caverns of the Underdark, or city sewers. The stereotype is not without merit, however, and many rangers fit the image of cunning hunters and protectors of forests or other wildlands. These rangers see themselves as the enemies of nature's enemies and have a special affinity for barbarians and druids, who often share similar goals. As their aspirations may differ so do rangers' backgrounds, some coming from special military training while others learn under solitary mentors who vest them with lessons on how to survive in places where few of the civilized races care to tread. Whether through military or personal training, all rangers are fairly self-reliant and as much, if not more, at home in the wild as they are in a bustling city.

Most rangers worship gods of the wilderness, such as Mielikki or Silvanus, which grant their followers a limited amount of divine spells, as long as they retain a good alignment and doesn't intentionally commits an evil act. The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden.

Rangers can be useful scouts, but they can also be deadly fighters, capable of holding their own against many foes with their skill in dual weapon melee combat. Generally, they prefer to be lightly armored, as it allows them more agility and use of their reflexes then heavier armor makes possible."

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Can specialize (++) in any weapon proficiency.
- Charm Animal/Animal Empathy
- Racial Enemy (+4 to hit vs. a selected foe)
- Stealth
- At 1st level, the ranger gets two points in two-weapon fighting style.
- At 4th level, can cast 1st level druid spells. Ranger's casting ability slowly increases up to allowing him to cast 4th level spells.
- At 7th level, the ranger gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.

Notes:
If we compare this class to the Fighter one we may say Grand Mastery has been traded for stealthing abilities, limited spellcasting capabilities, and a few rather small features like Racial Enemy and Charm Animal.
- Casting Ability: without SR this probably wasn't too great, but I'm quite sure SR makes it much more interesting. Should we allow Rangers to reach 4th level spells as their cousins paladins? Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?
- Animal Empathy: I'll simply revise the Charm Animal ability to be more effective, increasing its effectiveness as the ranger gains levels. Anyway this ability surely can't become really useful within BG.
- Racial Enemy: there's little I can do about this. I like Refinements HLA which improves it though, I'll surely keep it in an eventual KR's HLA table for rangers.
- Stealth: it was somewhat capped in vanilla because it couldn't be used with armors heavier than light, but I assume KR players will use either Tweak Pack or IR to allow Rangers to perform scouting duties at least in medium armor, making them a sort of slightly more armored scouts. Speaking of this, am I the only one who'd limit them to medium armors? Rangers should rely on agility and endurance for scouting, and full plate mails doesn't seem to fit this role imo.
- if we want to add a unique feature I'd say it should be tied somewhat to ranger's agility or endurance.


Archer
"The archers are rangers trained to become the pinnacles of archery and are typically imagined as unrivaled in the use of bows. Calm in the heart of battle, archers rarely miss and and their arrows are quite often lethal. Unlike other rangers who generally prefer to take their quarry on in a melee, archer rangers prefer to hunt from afar, resorting only to close combat when ranged attacks are no longer practical. Archers often are lone hunters, but they commonly work with others as well because working with allies allows the archer to take tactical advantage of their combined efforts. While archers are common among both humans and elves, sylvan archers are well-known for their almost artistic dedication to archery and though other rangers may be similarly skilled in the use of a bow few are as graceful and beautiful in their use of it as a sylvan archer.

The archer is the epitome of skill with the bow. He is the ultimate marksman, able to make almost any shot, no matter how difficult, but to become so skilled with the bow, the archer has to sacrifice his training with melee weapons. He is also more nimble and less armored than most fellow rangers, focusing on mobility, finesse and delicate skill over brutal power in a fight."

Advantages:
- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in bows
- At 1st level gains +1 to hit and damage with any missile weapon, and an additional +1 every other 4 levels (up to +5 at 17th level)
- Can make a Called Shot once per day for every 4 levels, starting with one use at level one.
When this ability is activated, any shot made within the next 2 rounds is made at -4 penalty to attack rolls, but is augmented in the following manner (according to the level of the archer):
1st level: -1 to target's AC for x rounds -- Sunder
4th level: target's movement rate is halved for x rounds -- Hamstring
8th level: target cannot attack for 1-2 rounds -- Disarm
12th level: knockdown/stun target for 1 round -- Trip/Headshot

Disadvantages:
- Can only become proficient (+) in melee weapons (including those that can also be used as missile weapons.)
- Can only become specialized (++) in non-bow missile weapons (ie darts and slings.)
- Cannot wear armor heavier than light.
- Cannot use shields.
- No Charm Animal ability.

Notes:
This class and bow-armed characters in general can be somewhat overpowered at low levels within BG1 but IR tries to rectify this (a full in-depth discussion on this can be found here).
- the progression of hit/damage bonuses with ranged weapons has been slightly changed to take into account BG1 low levels.
- archer is not proficient in shields anymore.
- Called Shot has been revised (and still need to be refined) to work more similarly to PnP (e.g. adding -4 penalty to attack rolls).


Stalker
"At first glance, these soft-spoken, rather nondescript characters seem hopelessly out of place in most adventuring parties, looking instead like a town dweller who's wandered into the wilderness by mistake. But the drab demeanor is only a facade, concealing keen senses, a shrewd mind, and remarkable insight. Few realize the extent of his expertise in intelligence-gathering. And that's just the way he likes it. Stalkers serve as spies, informants, and scouts. Unlike other rangers, Stalkers are comfortable in both wilderness and urban settings. A Stalker may covertly observe a bandit camp to inventory their supplies and hostages, or eavesdrop in the corridors of an evil wizard's castle, always ready and prepared to take the action if necessary.

Advanced senses, swift strikes, surprise, and cunning are the key weapons of a Stalker. His fighting skills, combined with his mastery of stealth makes him a deadly opponent. Even his spellcasting abilities are particularly tailored to fit his necessities, allowing an experienced stalker to disappear in plain sight and avoid detection through magical means."

Advantages:
- +20% to stealth ability
- +2 movement rate
- At 5th level can backstab with a x2 damage multiplier, which increases to x3 at 9th level, and x4 at 13th lvl.
- Has access to a limited number of arcane spells (True Strike, Invisibility, Non-detection, Improved Invisibility).

Disadvantages:
- Can only wield "weapons usable by thieves" (we should re-write this imo)
- Cannot wear armor heavier than light.
- Cannot use shields.
- No Charm Animal ability.

Notes:
- stalkers are now limited to use weapons suited to backstab.
- I've added a movement rate bonus to make the kit slightly more appealing at low levels.
- I've replaced vanilla's bonus spells (Haste, Minor Spell Turning, Protection from Missiles) with a list which imo is more approriate (True Strike, Invisibility, Non-detection, Improved Invisibility), and is distribuited amongst all the spell levels.
- vanilla's backstab progression (x2 at 9th lvl, x3 at 17th) has been heavily revised. An "early" x2 multiplier is essential to make the kit behave as it should within BG1 (else he cannot backstab till BG2), the higher x4 multiplier is there to make the Stalker competitive compared to a F/T which can get both x5 multiplier and grandmastery.


Beast Master
"Beast masters take their strength from a natural affinity with animals, and a primal bond with his animal companion. Through this bond, beast masters and their beast companion can communicate telepathically and become a formidable team, acting out as extensions of one another. Unlike most adventurers, the beast master does not command, train, or control his animal companions, rather they are his friends and comrades-in-arms. Misunderstood and feared by nobles and common folk alike for his unnatural abilities with animals, a beast master seldom stays in one place for long, nor is he comfortable in civilized lands.

Many beast masters take on a bear or similarly durable beast as their companion, others choose instead a panther or beast of similar cunning and stealth, but rarer and more exotic companions are also sometimes used. This generally reflects the beast master's attitude, as well as his approach when it comes to fight his enemies, but most beast masters focus on a spirit of coordinated action, and together with their companion they can carry out flanks and other advanced maneuvers all on their own. Animal companions learn beside the beast master, improving in capability as the ranger does, and developing their own abilities."

Advantages:
- Animal Companion (can choose between a bear and a panther)
- Animal Horde (can summon various packs of animals to help him)

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear metal armors.
- Cannot use shields.
- Can only wield "weapons usable by druids" and bows.

Notes:
- I'm replacing vanilla's Find Familiar with a more appropriate animal companion (at the moment I'm implementing two possible companions, a bear and a panther).
- the bonus spells (Animal Summoning I/II/III) used as normal divine spells will be replaced by a similar innate ability.
- beastmaster can now use short bows and long bows.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 17 June 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[yarpen]

Quote

Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?

I think that they should start their spells earlier. In BG1 there's very little chance for seeing ranger using Entangle in action which is weird. Maybe 5th level? Rangers are usually weaker than Paladins (Lay on hands, Turn Undead, Protection against Evil, faster and wider spell progression, Holy Avenger)...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Notes:
- Animal Empaty: I'll simply revise the Charm Animal ability to be more effective, increasing its effectiveness as the ranger gains levels. Anyway this ability surely can't become really useful within BG.

- The Animal Empathy should be actually made with a proper race scripts to all the animals + summons... for example if the animals is neutral, they won't go to hostile (like in BGT-BP, Classic Adventures and other mods) when the ranger or druid is near them. Now, if we wish to then expand this, we could give the script more power to tame the beasts and at higher levels make the hostile animals join the ranger/druids against their original (fallen*)masters. *Fallen, cause for example, I do not see how the Beastmaster in the Copper Coronet actually could have been thinking for the best of the animals, by putting them to the arena for the entertainment.

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

- Casting Ability: without SR this probably wasn't too great, but I'm quite sure SR makes it much more interesting. Should we allow Rangers to reach 4th level spells as their cousins paladins? Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?

- On the casting, are you thinking at all about the Tweakpack, as it already gives the possibility to give the higher spell levels, and brings all the tables to level 50.

[Demivrgvs]

Casting Ability

yarpen, on May 17 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

Quote

Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?

I think that they should start their spells earlier. In BG1 there's very little chance for seeing ranger using Entangle in action which is weird. Maybe 5th level? Rangers are usually weaker than Paladins (Lay on hands, Turn Undead, Protection against Evil, faster and wider spell progression, Holy Avenger)...

Yeah, I'd vote for it, the level should be somewhere between 4th and 6th imo. I'd like to know more opinions on this matter.

Jarno Mikkola, on May 17 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

On the casting, are you thinking at all about the Tweakpack, as it already gives the possibility to give the higher spell levels, and brings all the tables to level 50.

Are you sure you're talking about Tweak Pack? As I do remember such a tweak but I don't think it's within Tweak Pack. Anyway I don't think the two tables would be the same, especially because most mods that aim at level 50 are slightly overpowered for my tastes and because we're talking about changing the progression to grant rangers a few spells at lower levels.

Animal Empathy

Jarno Mikkola, on May 17 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

The Animal Empathy should be actually made with a proper race scripts to all the animals + summons... for example if the animals is neutral, they won't go to hostile (like in BGT-BP, Classic Adventures and other mods) when the ranger or druid is near them. Now, if we wish to then expand this, we could give the script more power to tame the beasts and at higher levels make the hostile animals join the ranger/druids against their original (fallen*)masters. *Fallen, cause for example, I do not see how the Beastmaster in the Copper Coronet actually could have been thinking for the best of the animals, by putting them to the arena for the entertainment.

I'm not sure I'm following you sorry...isn't a simple charm spell not flagged as hostile what we're looking for?

[berelinde]

I always limit my rangers to leather or studded leather armor. Rangers tend to be dex fighters, so slapping them in plate makes no sene. Sometimes, though, I'll let them wear the Shadow Dragon armor.

I've got mixed feelings about earlier spell use. On the one hand, having to wait until 8th level to cast a spell is a big penalty. Cleric THACO tables aren't that much worse than fighters', to justify the wait. But then, regular fighters don't ever get to cast spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

Casting Ability...Are you sure you're talking about Tweak Pack? As I do remember such a tweak but I don't think it's within Tweak Pack. Anyway I don't think the two tables would be the same, especially because most mods that aim at level 50 are slightly overpowered for my tastes and because we're talking about changing the progression to grant rangers a few spells at lower levels.

Ups, so it's not there... I could see the Ranger having few 6th level spells on levels 39-50.

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

Animal Empathy
I'm not sure I'm following you sorry...isn't a simple charm spell not flagged as hostile what we're looking for?

No. One reason is that the hostile flag removes the invisibility, a feature that is needed for Charm spells...
I am talking about the general animal behavior, and thus their Scripts. Of course it might not be in the scope of this mod alone, but... if a high level ranger would be able to charm some summoned War Dogs with his mere presence to fight against their summoned, an evil Conjurer, it would be stylish. With his mere presence... cause the War Dogs can have whatever resistances they wish, but they are still subject to the Rangers presence(with a saving throw against the effect, on every 2 rounds/turns... the smaller time episode ), and the Ranger should never have limited amount of them during his 100 day march throughout the realms without sleeping.

berelinde, on May 17 2009, 08:33 PM, said:

I've got mixed feelings about earlier spell use. On the one hand, having to wait until 8th level to cast a spell is a big penalty. Cleric THACO tables aren't that much worse than fighters', to justify the wait. But then, regular fighters don't ever get to cast spells.

Well, the Rangers and Paladins have the XP 'penalty' and other features that should take them down a few pegs.

[Demivrgvs]

Armor proficiency

berelinde, on May 17 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

I always limit my rangers to leather or studded leather armor. Rangers tend to be dex fighters, so slapping them in plate makes no sene. Sometimes, though, I'll let them wear the Shadow Dragon armor.

Shadow Dragon Armor still is light armor. And yes, I'm sure there are players like me and you who'd use rangers with light armors anyway, but making them unable to wear heavy armor can be an appropriate restriction to justify other improvements to the class.

Casting Ability

Jarno Mikkola, on May 17 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

berelinde, on May 17 2009, 08:33 PM, said:

I've got mixed feelings about earlier spell use. On the one hand, having to wait until 8th level to cast a spell is a big penalty. Cleric THACO tables aren't that much worse than fighters', to justify the wait. But then, regular fighters don't ever get to cast spells.

Well, the Rangers and Paladins have the XP 'penalty' and other features that should take them down a few pegs.

As Yarno says rangers and paladins gain levels at a slower rate than any other class, but these classes (in their non-kitted versions) has always been considered a weak choice even if they can cast spells (though vanilla paladins are far better than rangers imo). In general most True Classes are somewhat less appealing than their kits, and I'm trying to rectify this.

Returing on the matter in question, allowing an earlier spell use doesn't mean rangers become only a few levels behind a druid when it comes to spellcasting capability. I'd still assign them a very slow progression, meaning that they'd probably be able to cast 4th level spells only at 16th level or something like that.

Jarno Mikkola, on May 17 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

...Are you sure you're talking about Tweak Pack? As I do remember such a tweak but I don't think it's within Tweak Pack. Anyway I don't think the two tables would be the same, especially because most mods that aim at level 50 are slightly overpowered for my tastes and because we're talking about changing the progression to grant rangers a few spells at lower levels.

Ups, so it's not there... I could see the Ranger having few 6th level spells on levels 39-50.

Having a class which is almost as good as a Fighter in melee cast 6th level spell is clearly unbalanced/unfair if compared to the other class. I can use HLAs to make rangers more interesting above 20th level, but I'd never allow them to cast 5th level spell, sorry.

Animal Empathy

Jarno Mikkola, on May 17 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

I'm not sure I'm following you sorry...isn't a simple charm spell not flagged as hostile what we're looking for?

No. One reason is that the hostile flag removes the invisibility, a feature that is needed for Charm spells...

Actually I think any spell casted on a target which isn't 'TargetSelf' breaks invisibility, and if it isn't so (though I'm quite sure) it would still be able to make it break invisibility as I did for Barbarian Rage.

Quote

I am talking about the general animal behavior, and thus their Scripts. Of course it might not be in the scope of this mod alone, but... if a high level ranger would be able to charm some summoned War Dogs with his mere presence to fight against their summoned, an evil Conjurer, it would be stylish. With his mere presence... cause the War Dogs can have whatever resistances they wish, but they are still subject to the Rangers presence(with a saving throw against the effect, on every 2 rounds/turns... the smaller time episode ), and the Ranger should never have limited amount of them during his 100 day march throughout the realms without sleeping.

Conceptually I agree with you, but it can't be implemented because aura-like effects (with cast spell on condition) have been proved to cause a few issues.

New Description
Here's my first attempt at re-writing rangers descriptions (most of it is taken from forgotten realms wiki):

"Rangers are often stereotyped as wild frontiersmen and are thought of as woodland hunters of deadly prey, skilled in wilderness lore. This is not, however, true of all rangers and others are more at home within ancient ruins, vast deserts, caverns of the Underdark, or city sewers. The stereotype is not without merit, however, and many rangers fit the image of cunning hunters and protectors of forests or other wildlands. These rangers see themselves as the enemies of nature's enemies and have a special affinity for barbarians and druids, who often share similar goals. As their aspirations may differ so do rangers' backgrounds, some coming from special military training while others learn under solitary mentors who vest them with lessons on how to survive in places where few of the civilized races care to tread. Whether through military or personal training, all rangers are fairly self-reliant and as much, if not more, at home in the wild as they are in a bustling city.

Rangers can be useful scouts, but they can also be deadly fighters, capable of holding their own against many foes with their skill in dual weapon melee combat. Generally, they prefer to be lightly armored, as it allows them more agility and use of their reflexes then heavier armor makes possible.

Most rangers worship gods of the wilderness, such as Mielikki or Silvanus, which grant their followers a limited amount of divine spells, as long as they retain a good alignment and doesn’t intentionally commits an evil act. The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden."

[Ardanis]

Charm Animal/Animal Empaty

How often would make a sense to charm furries instead of killing them for 500XP?

BG1 has large outdoors areas where bears and their kin might be useful
SoA - Copper Coronet's beastmaster releases several cats and bears from their cells and they might be tough by the moment you get there.
ToB - are there any animals at all there?

I'm thinking about replacing Charm/Empathy with a Summon Animal. At least it can provide some fodder. Times when we might be in a need of fodder are slightly greater (even in ToB).

[Icendoan]

Say, if this particular furry can take care of another deadlier foe for you at no risk to yourself, and then you kill it anyway, or it is totally outmatching you. (Dire Wolves in BG1 come to mind, yet I can charm them sometimes).

Summon Animal begins to encroach on the Totemic Druid, and the Beast Master with it's Find Familiar (I have found that BM, while underpowered, if dualled to Cleric can form a formidable character in BG1. (BM2->C1, I have a familiar, Ankheg Armour and 40HP))

Icen

[plainab]

Ranger kits... so this is for BG2 engine... Okay...

You've mentioned Drizzt in the sample description. I'm not sure what the current status for BG2 Rangers are, but if you're going to compare them to Drizzt then they've got to be able to get Grand Mastery in Dual Wield. The player should only ever assign two points in any available melee weapon, but something like the learn through use mod should be applied as well. So that as the ranger continues to use the same melee weapons they will become better and more proficient as they make successful strikes. Maybe use the successful hit counting system from learn through use in conjunction with an increase in speed, thac0 or something like that. It could be an incredibly high count coupled with certain xp levels. Perhaps after 1000 successful strikes and after level 5 combat speed could be modified. After another 1000 strikes and after level 10 thac0 is modified. I think you get the idea...

The numbers and stuff are just thoughts, they can certainly change...

Maybe the ranger could have their normal spell progression, but if you have a druid in the party the ranger will be able to learn spells earlier but at the normal rate... Think of it as the druid is helping the ranger find their green thumb...

Doable? I have no clue...

[Ardanis]

Quote

Summon Animal begins to encroach on the Totemic Druid

I know, yes.

Totemic druids can then create aura-giving totems (Warcraft?) instead.

[Leomar]

Here is mentioned something that I've never knew before:

Quote

Druid/Ranger: Shadows of Amn, bears encountered in the Sword Coast will do no more than growl if a Druid and/or Ranger is nearby.

Is that only for bears or other normal neutral animals, too?
If all the Ranger classes have this ability I would recommend it to write it down by the class features. I think, this is good to know, too.

E.g.:
...
- Racial Enemy (+4 to hit vs. a selected foe)
- Stealth
- Neutral animals get not hostile if the Ranger is nearby
...

Greetings Leomar

[Shaitan]

An improved racial enemy would be fine IMO, and as berelinde mentioned: To me also rangers are dex fighters and thus at most use leather armours (light armours).

BTW any thoughts on limiting spells on C/R?

Edited by Shaitan, 17 May 2009 - 10:43 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 10:57 PM, said:

Animal Empathy

Quote

I am talking about the general animal behavior, and thus their Scripts.

Conceptually I agree with you, but it can't be implemented because aura-like effects (with cast spell on condition) have been proved to cause a few issues.

Aura-like effect, what? If we make the casting of the spell right, we make the animal cast it on themselves, thus there is no aura-like effect, but script launching one... something like:

IF
   Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
   GlobalTimerExpired("Animal1","LOCAL")
   See(*)
THEN
   RESPONSE #100
	 SetGlobalTimer("Animal1","LOCAL",20)
	 CastSpell(**)
END
...

Where the * is appropriate ranger or druid, and ** is a self targeted spell that makes the animal become neutral if it fails save.

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 10:57 PM, said:

New Description...
" The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden."

Drizit Des'Urdan, who? The game was set to a period in time when Drizzt wasn't dead, yet... so you perhaps might want to look for more appropriate reference, someone who was more generally known(perhaps even Montolio Debrouchee). By the way, Drizzt is Fighter 10 ->Barbarian 1 -> Ranger of Mielikki 5... so in BG1 when the player sets out, he really wasn't that well known ranger...

Leomar, on May 18 2009, 05:39 AM, said:

- Neutral animals get not hostile if the Ranger is nearby...

... unless the animal is hit by the player.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 17 May 2009 - 11:03 PM.

[Demivrgvs]

Charm Animal/Animal Empaty

Ardanis, on May 17 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

How often would make a sense to charm furries instead of killing them for 500XP?

Well, I'm not the police and I cannot force players to roleplay, but I may add a limited XP reward for a successful use of this ability similarly to how thieves get XP points for disarming traps. I'm not sure how to handle this, but it may be doable.

Ardanis, on May 17 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

I'm thinking about replacing Charm/Empathy with a Summon Animal. At least it can provide some fodder. Times when we might be in a need of fodder are slightly greater (even in ToB).

Icendoan, on May 18 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

Summon Animal begins to encroach on the Totemic Druid, and the Beast Master...

I do agree with Ice.

Ardanis, on May 18 2009, 03:34 AM, said:

Totemic druids can then create aura-giving totems (Warcraft?) instead.

Well, we may discuss it, but surely I won't remove Spirit Animals from Totemic Druid arsenal. I actually have plans to make them scale a lot better so that they are not overpowered in BG1 and useless in ToB.

plainab, on May 18 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

You've mentioned Drizzt in the sample description. I'm not sure what the current status for BG2 Rangers are, but if you're going to compare them to Drizzt then they've got to be able to get Grand Mastery in Dual Wield. ...

All rangers start with two points into dual weapon style, and it's an hardcoded feature. I may assign them the last point at a certain level though. Your suggested "learn" method is cool, but I'm not going in that direction sorry.

Quote

Maybe the ranger could have their normal spell progression, but if you have a druid in the party the ranger will be able to learn spells earlier but at the normal rate... Think of it as the druid is helping the ranger find their green thumb...

Doable? I have no clue...

It can't be done, and it would stress out well establised rules. I don't want to upset too much how D&D class system works.

Racial Enemy & Armor Limitations

Shaitan, on May 18 2009, 08:42 AM, said:

An improved racial enemy would be fine IMO, and as berelinde mentioned: To me also rangers are dex fighters and thus at most use leather armours (light armours).

As I said, even if I'd like to improve Racial Enemy feature a lot, I fear there's little I can do except what Refinements did with an HLA.

Regarding armor limitations I'm glad to see we generally agree on this. I'd leave them proficiency in medium armor though, mainly because else Archer and Stalker limitation wouldn't be a disadvantage anymore, but also because medium armor still allows a decent degree of mobility (IR's chain mails can still allow a ranger to perform scout roles while being more armored than a thief).

Casting Ability

Shaitan, on May 18 2009, 08:42 AM, said:

BTW any thoughts on limiting spells on C/R?

I'd like to, but that would require a whole revision of how spells are assigned, just like Divine Remix does. I've not time for that unfortunately, thus unless Mike (or any other experienced coder) decides to implement it within SR himself I don't think I'll do it anytime soon.

When it comes to rebalance the appeal of multi, dual and single classes I'm convinced that we can do a lot about that:
- assigning unique abilities at mid-high levels (it pratically never happens in vanilla, where most bonuses are gained right away).
- creating a lot more complex HLA system with many custom tables (Refinements does a good job, and we can further expand this concept). This is the most important thing imo, as by the time you reach 20th level a class generally hasn't much more progression, and considering a fighter/mage can become a fighter20/mage18 with 6mln xp that means currently a single class fighter even at 30th level is too behind the sheer power offered by the multiclass (even with the unnerfed thac0 tables which I don't like).

New Description...

Jarno Mikkola, on May 18 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

Demivrgvs, on May 17 2009, 10:57 PM, said:

" The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden."

Drizit Des'Urdan, who? The game was set to a period in time when Drizzt wasn't dead, yet... so you perhaps might want to look for more appropriate reference, someone who was more generally known(perhaps even Montolio Debrouchee). By the way, Drizzt is Fighter 10 ->Barbarian 1 -> Ranger of Mielikki 5... so in BG1 when the player sets out, he really wasn't that well known ranger...

Yeah, in 2nd edition he probably was a 16th level ranger, but I'm quite sure he is very well known at the time period the game is set in. Many NPCs knows about him and I remind someone in the party comment about him being famous, not to mention his whole group consists of renowned adventurers.

Anyway I don't care much about this line in the description if it does bother players. I thought mentioning him was the easiest way to add Forgotten Realms lore into the description, and that he does represent well the dual-wielding ranger character who roams the lands.