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Kit Revisions (Rangers)


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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:11 AM

When it comes to the ranger classes I'd say we have a slightly underpowered and underused base class, with an outstanding kit (Archer), a very interesting one (Stalker), and a potentially cool concept wasted with an incredibly weak implementation (Beast Master). As always I'd like to discuss what has to be done to make sure we can please as much players as we can while maintaining the goal to rebalance the classes.


True Ranger
"Rangers are often stereotyped as wild frontiersmen and are thought of as woodland hunters of deadly prey, skilled in wilderness lore. This is not, however, true of all rangers and others are more at home within ancient ruins, vast deserts, caverns of the Underdark, or city sewers. The stereotype is not without merit, however, and many rangers fit the image of cunning hunters and protectors of forests or other wildlands. These rangers see themselves as the enemies of nature's enemies and have a special affinity for barbarians and druids, who often share similar goals. As their aspirations may differ so do rangers' backgrounds, some coming from special military training while others learn under solitary mentors who vest them with lessons on how to survive in places where few of the civilized races care to tread. Whether through military or personal training, all rangers are fairly self-reliant and as much, if not more, at home in the wild as they are in a bustling city.

Most rangers worship gods of the wilderness, such as Mielikki or Silvanus, which grant their followers a limited amount of divine spells, as long as they retain a good alignment and doesn't intentionally commits an evil act. The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden.

Rangers can be useful scouts, but they can also be deadly fighters, capable of holding their own against many foes with their skill in dual weapon melee combat. Generally, they prefer to be lightly armored, as it allows them more agility and use of their reflexes and stealth than heavier armor makes possible."

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Can specialize (++) in any weapon proficiency.
- Gets +4 bonus to attack rolls against a selected Racial Enemy
- Can use Stealth to hide and move silently with a 30% chance. This improves by 5% for every level, up to 100% at level 15.
- Can use Tracking and Wild Empathy at will. These abilities improve significantly at level 10.
- At 1st level, the ranger gets two points in two-weapon fighting style.
- At 4th level, gains Divine Spellcasting.
- At 5th level, gains Woodland Stride.
- At 7th level, the ranger gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.

TRACKING: Each round the ranger has a 30% chance to detect hidden creatures within 30 feet. While tracking, the ranger suffer -2 penalty to attack rolls and -4 penalty to movement rate. This stance lasts for 6 rounds.

WILD EMPATHY: targeted animal must save vs. spell or be charmed. This ability cannot be used multiple times against the same creature.

DIVINE SPELLCASTING: the ranger can cast 1st level divine spells. At levels 8, 12 and 16 he can cast 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells respectively. At level 6 and every other 4 levels he can memorize one more spell per day for each spell level he currently knows.

WOODLAND STRIDE: the ranger can move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.

Notes:
KR's Ranger is still largely based on AD&D Ranger, but I've also taken some inspiration from 3E and Pathfinder.
- unfortunately there's little I can do about Racial Enemy. :(
- I've only slightly altered Stealth progression to make it more reliable at low levels but almost identical at mid-high levels.
- I've added a low level Tracking ability because it has always been a classic feature of this class since AD&D and it makes no sense to wait till HLAs to have something similar.
- I've renamed Charm Animal into Wild Empathy, made it an "at will" ability and slightly improved it.
- Divine Spellcasting has been revised with a progression more similar to 3E and a more appropriate spellbook (similar to druids but not identical).
- I've added a 3E-like Woodland Stride feature, which might be refined or expanded in later versions.


Archer
"The archers are rangers trained to become the pinnacles of archery and are typically imagined as unrivaled in the use of bows. Calm in the heart of battle, archers rarely miss and and their arrows are quite often lethal. Unlike other rangers who generally prefer to take their quarry on in a melee, archer rangers prefer to hunt from afar, resorting only to close combat when ranged attacks are no longer practical. Archers often are lone hunters, but they commonly work with others as well because working with allies allows the archer to take tactical advantage of their combined efforts. While archers are common among both humans and elves, sylvan archers are well-known for their almost artistic dedication to archery and though other rangers may be similarly skilled in the use of a bow few are as graceful and beautiful in their use of it as a sylvan archer.

The archer is the epitome of skill with the bow. He is the ultimate marksman, able to make almost any shot, no matter how difficult, but to become so skilled with the bow, the archer has to sacrifice his training with melee weapons. He is also more nimble and less armored than most fellow rangers, focusing on mobility, finesse and delicate skill over brutal power in a fight
."

Advantages:
- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in short bow and long bow
- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with missile weapons. For every 4 levels, this bonus increases by +1, up to +5 at level 16.
- At 4th level, can use Called Shot once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.
- At 11th level, gains a +2 bonus to AC vs. missile weapons. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at levels 14 and 17.

Disadvantages:
- Can only become proficient (+) in melee weapons (including those that can also be used as missile weapons.)
- Can only become specialized (++) in non-bow missile weapons (ie darts and slings.)
- Cannot wear armor heavier than light.
- Cannot use shields.

CALLED SHOT: When making a Called Shot, a warrior attempts to hamper fighting ability or mobility. For one round, the archer takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but his first successful ranged attack carries dire consequences for his opponent. Targets struck are allowed a save at +2 bonus to reduce the effects. At 8th level and every other 4 levels the saving throw difficulty class improves by 2, up to -4 penalty at 16th level.

CALLED SHOT (DISARM): With this attack, the archer chooses to impede fighting ability. When hit, the target will suffer a -4 penalty to hit rolls for 6 rounds. If a save vs. breath is made the duration is halved.
At 10th level, any target who fails the save is also unable to attack for 1 round.
At 19th level, any target who fails the save will also have his strength reduced by 50% for 1 turn.

CALLED SHOT (TRIP): With this attack, the archer chooses to impede mobility. When hit, the target will suffer a -50% penalty to movement speed for 6 rounds. If a save vs. death is made the duration is halved.
At 10th level, any target who fails the save is also knocked down for 1 round.
At 19th level, any target who fails the save will also have his dexterity reduced by 50% for 1 turn.

Notes:
Conceptually, KR's Archer is pretty much identical to vanilla's one, which seems like a mix of Pathfinder's Archer and Elven Archer.
- bow-armed characters in general were somewhat overpowered within BG1 because of the better thac0 and 2 apr but IR tries to rectify this (a full in-depth discussion on this can be found here).
- the progression of hit/damage bonuses with ranged weapons has been slightly changed to take into account BG1 low levels.
- Called Shot currently works as the same ability from KR's True Fighter, but the Archer can perform them only with missile weapons.
- Evasive Archer's AC bonuses vs. missiles comes straight from Pathfinder's Archer


Beastmaster
"Beastmasters take their strength from a natural affinity with animals, and a primal bond with his animal companion. Through this bond, beast masters and their beast companion can communicate telepathically and become a formidable team, acting out as extensions of one another. Unlike most adventurers, the beastmaster does not command, train, or control his animal companions, rather they are his friends and comrades-in-arms. Misunderstood and feared by nobles and common folk alike for his unnatural abilities with animals, a beast master seldom stays in one place for long, nor is he comfortable in civilized lands.

Many beast masters take on a bear or similarly durable beast as their companion, others choose instead a panther or beast of similar cunning and stealth, but rarer and more exotic companions are also sometimes used. This generally reflects the beast master's attitude, as well as his approach when it comes to fight his enemies, but most beast masters focus on a spirit of coordinated action, and together with their companion they can carry out flanks and other advanced maneuvers all on their own. Animal companions learn beside the beast master, improving in capability as the ranger does, and developing their own abilities.
"

Advantages:
- Animal Companion (can choose between a bear and a panther)
- Animal Horde (can summon various packs of animals to help him)

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear metal armors.
- Can only wield "weapons usable by druids" and bows.

ANIMAL COMPANION:

ANIMAL HORDE:

Notes:
Vanilla's Beastmaster had great potential but a terrible implementation. KR's version remains very close to AD&D kit.
- I've replace vanilla's Find Familiar (yeah, because a ranger summoning a Fairy Dranog familiar makes sense) with a more appropriate Animal Companion (at the moment I'm implementing only a panther, but I'm not excluding multiple choices in the future).
- vanilla's bonus spells (Animal Summoning I/II/III) used as normal divine spells might be replaced by a similar Animal Horde innate ability.
- Beastmaster's armor and weapon proficiency is pretty much identical to vanilla's Druid, except that he can use bows


Stalker
"At first glance, these soft-spoken, rather nondescript characters seem hopelessly out of place in most adventuring parties, looking instead like a town dweller who's wandered into the wilderness by mistake. But the drab demeanor is only a facade, concealing keen senses, a shrewd mind, and remarkable insight. Few realize the extent of his expertise in intelligence-gathering. And that's just the way he likes it. Stalkers serve as spies, informants, and scouts. Unlike other rangers, Stalkers are comfortable in both wilderness and urban settings. A Stalker may covertly observe a bandit camp to inventory their supplies and hostages, or eavesdrop in the corridors of an evil wizard's castle, always ready and prepared to take the action if necessary.

Advanced senses, swift strikes, surprise, and cunning are the key weapons of a Stalker. His fighting skills, combined with his mastery of stealth makes him a deadly opponent. Even his spellcasting abilities are particularly tailored to fit his necessities, allowing an experienced stalker to disappear in plain sight and avoid detection through magical means.
"

Advantages:
- +20% to stealth ability
- At 1st level, can backstab with a x2 damage multiplier, which increases to x3 at level 9 and x4 at level 17.
- Has access to a limited number of arcane spells (True Strike, Invisibility, Non-detection, Improved Invisibility).

Disadvantages:
- Can only wield "weapons usable by thieves" (we should re-write this imo)
- Cannot wear armor heavier than light.
- Cannot use shields.
- No Charm Animal ability.

Notes:
KR's Stalker is just an improved/refined version of vanilla's kit, clearly based upon AD&D version. The only similar class I could find in more recent PnP editions is 3E Darkwood Stalker.
- the Stalker is now limited to use weapons suited to backstab as per AD&D.
- vanilla's Backstab progression has been slightly revised. An early x2 multiplier is essential to make the kit behave as it should from the start of BG1, while the higher x4 multiplier is there to make the Stalker competitive compared to a F/T which can get both x5 multiplier and grandmastery.
- I've replaced vanilla's bonus spells (Haste, Minor Spell Turning, Protection from Missiles) with a list of more appropriate spells with higher sinergy imo (True Strike, Invisibility, Non-detection, Improved Invisibility), distribuited amongst the various spell levels.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 09 December 2013 - 06:55 AM.


#2 yarpen

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:05 AM

Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?

I think that they should start their spells earlier. In BG1 there's very little chance for seeing ranger using Entangle in action which is weird. Maybe 5th level? Rangers are usually weaker than Paladins (Lay on hands, Turn Undead, Protection against Evil, faster and wider spell progression, Holy Avenger)...

#3 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 06:22 AM

Notes:
- Animal Empaty: I'll simply revise the Charm Animal ability to be more effective, increasing its effectiveness as the ranger gains levels. Anyway this ability surely can't become really useful within BG.

- The Animal Empathy should be actually made with a proper race scripts to all the animals + summons... for example if the animals is neutral, they won't go to hostile (like in BGT-BP, Classic Adventures and other mods) when the ranger or druid is near them. Now, if we wish to then expand this, we could give the script more power to tame the beasts and at higher levels make the hostile animals join the ranger/druids against their original (fallen*)masters. *Fallen, cause for example, I do not see how the Beastmaster in the Copper Coronet actually could have been thinking for the best of the animals, by putting them to the arena for the entertainment.

- Casting Ability: without SR this probably wasn't too great, but I'm quite sure SR makes it much more interesting. Should we allow Rangers to reach 4th level spells as their cousins paladins? Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?

- On the casting, are you thinking at all about the Tweakpack, as it already gives the possibility to give the higher spell levels, and brings all the tables to level 50.
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#4 Demivrgvs

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 08:10 AM

Casting Ability

Is the current progression fine or should we allow spellcasting a little earlier?

I think that they should start their spells earlier. In BG1 there's very little chance for seeing ranger using Entangle in action which is weird. Maybe 5th level? Rangers are usually weaker than Paladins (Lay on hands, Turn Undead, Protection against Evil, faster and wider spell progression, Holy Avenger)...

Yeah, I'd vote for it, the level should be somewhere between 4th and 6th imo. I'd like to know more opinions on this matter.

On the casting, are you thinking at all about the Tweakpack, as it already gives the possibility to give the higher spell levels, and brings all the tables to level 50.

Are you sure you're talking about Tweak Pack? As I do remember such a tweak but I don't think it's within Tweak Pack. Anyway I don't think the two tables would be the same, especially because most mods that aim at level 50 are slightly overpowered for my tastes and because we're talking about changing the progression to grant rangers a few spells at lower levels.

Animal Empathy

The Animal Empathy should be actually made with a proper race scripts to all the animals + summons... for example if the animals is neutral, they won't go to hostile (like in BGT-BP, Classic Adventures and other mods) when the ranger or druid is near them. Now, if we wish to then expand this, we could give the script more power to tame the beasts and at higher levels make the hostile animals join the ranger/druids against their original (fallen*)masters. *Fallen, cause for example, I do not see how the Beastmaster in the Copper Coronet actually could have been thinking for the best of the animals, by putting them to the arena for the entertainment.

I'm not sure I'm following you sorry...isn't a simple charm spell not flagged as hostile what we're looking for?

#5 berelinde

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 09:33 AM

I always limit my rangers to leather or studded leather armor. Rangers tend to be dex fighters, so slapping them in plate makes no sene. Sometimes, though, I'll let them wear the Shadow Dragon armor.

I've got mixed feelings about earlier spell use. On the one hand, having to wait until 8th level to cast a spell is a big penalty. Cleric THACO tables aren't that much worse than fighters', to justify the wait. But then, regular fighters don't ever get to cast spells.
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#6 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:08 AM

Casting Ability...Are you sure you're talking about Tweak Pack? As I do remember such a tweak but I don't think it's within Tweak Pack. Anyway I don't think the two tables would be the same, especially because most mods that aim at level 50 are slightly overpowered for my tastes and because we're talking about changing the progression to grant rangers a few spells at lower levels.

:crazyeyes: Ups, so it's not there... I could see the Ranger having few 6th level spells on levels 39-50. :D

Animal Empathy
I'm not sure I'm following you sorry...isn't a simple charm spell not flagged as hostile what we're looking for?

No. One reason is that the hostile flag removes the invisibility, a feature that is needed for Charm spells...
I am talking about the general animal behavior, and thus their Scripts. Of course it might not be in the scope of this mod alone, but... if a high level ranger would be able to charm some summoned War Dogs with his mere presence to fight against their summoned, an evil Conjurer, it would be stylish. With his mere presence... cause the War Dogs can have whatever resistances they wish, but they are still subject to the Rangers presence(with a saving throw against the effect, on every 2 rounds/turns... :) the smaller time episode :) ), and the Ranger should never have limited amount of them during his 100 day march throughout the realms without sleeping. ;)

I've got mixed feelings about earlier spell use. On the one hand, having to wait until 8th level to cast a spell is a big penalty. Cleric THACO tables aren't that much worse than fighters', to justify the wait. But then, regular fighters don't ever get to cast spells.

Well, the Rangers and Paladins have the XP 'penalty' and other features that should take them down a few pegs.
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#7 Demivrgvs

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 11:57 AM

Armor proficiency

I always limit my rangers to leather or studded leather armor. Rangers tend to be dex fighters, so slapping them in plate makes no sene. Sometimes, though, I'll let them wear the Shadow Dragon armor.

Shadow Dragon Armor still is light armor. ;) And yes, I'm sure there are players like me and you who'd use rangers with light armors anyway, but making them unable to wear heavy armor can be an appropriate restriction to justify other improvements to the class.

Casting Ability

I've got mixed feelings about earlier spell use. On the one hand, having to wait until 8th level to cast a spell is a big penalty. Cleric THACO tables aren't that much worse than fighters', to justify the wait. But then, regular fighters don't ever get to cast spells.

Well, the Rangers and Paladins have the XP 'penalty' and other features that should take them down a few pegs.

As Yarno says rangers and paladins gain levels at a slower rate than any other class, but these classes (in their non-kitted versions) has always been considered a weak choice even if they can cast spells (though vanilla paladins are far better than rangers imo). In general most True Classes are somewhat less appealing than their kits, and I'm trying to rectify this.

Returing on the matter in question, allowing an earlier spell use doesn't mean rangers become only a few levels behind a druid when it comes to spellcasting capability. I'd still assign them a very slow progression, meaning that they'd probably be able to cast 4th level spells only at 16th level or something like that.

...Are you sure you're talking about Tweak Pack? As I do remember such a tweak but I don't think it's within Tweak Pack. Anyway I don't think the two tables would be the same, especially because most mods that aim at level 50 are slightly overpowered for my tastes and because we're talking about changing the progression to grant rangers a few spells at lower levels.

:crazyeyes: Ups, so it's not there... I could see the Ranger having few 6th level spells on levels 39-50. :D

Having a class which is almost as good as a Fighter in melee cast 6th level spell is clearly unbalanced/unfair if compared to the other class. I can use HLAs to make rangers more interesting above 20th level, but I'd never allow them to cast 5th level spell, sorry.

Animal Empathy

I'm not sure I'm following you sorry...isn't a simple charm spell not flagged as hostile what we're looking for?

No. One reason is that the hostile flag removes the invisibility, a feature that is needed for Charm spells...

Actually I think any spell casted on a target which isn't 'TargetSelf' breaks invisibility, and if it isn't so (though I'm quite sure) it would still be able to make it break invisibility as I did for Barbarian Rage.

I am talking about the general animal behavior, and thus their Scripts. Of course it might not be in the scope of this mod alone, but... if a high level ranger would be able to charm some summoned War Dogs with his mere presence to fight against their summoned, an evil Conjurer, it would be stylish. With his mere presence... cause the War Dogs can have whatever resistances they wish, but they are still subject to the Rangers presence(with a saving throw against the effect, on every 2 rounds/turns... :) the smaller time episode :) ), and the Ranger should never have limited amount of them during his 100 day march throughout the realms without sleeping. :D

Conceptually I agree with you, but it can't be implemented because aura-like effects (with cast spell on condition) have been proved to cause a few issues.

New Description
Here's my first attempt at re-writing rangers descriptions (most of it is taken from forgotten realms wiki):

"Rangers are often stereotyped as wild frontiersmen and are thought of as woodland hunters of deadly prey, skilled in wilderness lore. This is not, however, true of all rangers and others are more at home within ancient ruins, vast deserts, caverns of the Underdark, or city sewers. The stereotype is not without merit, however, and many rangers fit the image of cunning hunters and protectors of forests or other wildlands. These rangers see themselves as the enemies of nature's enemies and have a special affinity for barbarians and druids, who often share similar goals. As their aspirations may differ so do rangers' backgrounds, some coming from special military training while others learn under solitary mentors who vest them with lessons on how to survive in places where few of the civilized races care to tread. Whether through military or personal training, all rangers are fairly self-reliant and as much, if not more, at home in the wild as they are in a bustling city.

Rangers can be useful scouts, but they can also be deadly fighters, capable of holding their own against many foes with their skill in dual weapon melee combat. Generally, they prefer to be lightly armored, as it allows them more agility and use of their reflexes then heavier armor makes possible.

Most rangers worship gods of the wilderness, such as Mielikki or Silvanus, which grant their followers a limited amount of divine spells, as long as they retain a good alignment and doesn’t intentionally commits an evil act. The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden.
"

#8 Ardanis

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 12:32 PM

Charm Animal/Animal Empaty

How often would make a sense to charm furries instead of killing them for 500XP?

BG1 has large outdoors areas where bears and their kin might be useful
SoA - Copper Coronet's beastmaster releases several cats and bears from their cells and they might be tough by the moment you get there.
ToB - are there any animals at all there?

I'm thinking about replacing Charm/Empathy with a Summon Animal. At least it can provide some fodder. Times when we might be in a need of fodder are slightly greater (even in ToB).
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#9 Icendoan

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:42 PM

Say, if this particular furry can take care of another deadlier foe for you at no risk to yourself, and then you kill it anyway, or it is totally outmatching you. (Dire Wolves in BG1 come to mind, yet I can charm them sometimes).

Summon Animal begins to encroach on the Totemic Druid, and the Beast Master with it's Find Familiar (I have found that BM, while underpowered, if dualled to Cleric can form a formidable character in BG1. (BM2->C1, I have a familiar, Ankheg Armour and 40HP))

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#10 plainab

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:46 PM

Ranger kits... so this is for BG2 engine... Okay...

You've mentioned Drizzt in the sample description. I'm not sure what the current status for BG2 Rangers are, but if you're going to compare them to Drizzt then they've got to be able to get Grand Mastery in Dual Wield. The player should only ever assign two points in any available melee weapon, but something like the learn through use mod should be applied as well. So that as the ranger continues to use the same melee weapons they will become better and more proficient as they make successful strikes. Maybe use the successful hit counting system from learn through use in conjunction with an increase in speed, thac0 or something like that. It could be an incredibly high count coupled with certain xp levels. Perhaps after 1000 successful strikes and after level 5 combat speed could be modified. After another 1000 strikes and after level 10 thac0 is modified. I think you get the idea...

The numbers and stuff are just thoughts, they can certainly change...

Maybe the ranger could have their normal spell progression, but if you have a druid in the party the ranger will be able to learn spells earlier but at the normal rate... Think of it as the druid is helping the ranger find their green thumb...

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#11 Ardanis

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 05:34 PM

Summon Animal begins to encroach on the Totemic Druid

I know, yes.

Totemic druids can then create aura-giving totems (Warcraft?) instead.
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#12 Leomar

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 06:39 PM

Here is mentioned something that I've never knew before:

Druid/Ranger: Shadows of Amn, bears encountered in the Sword Coast will do no more than growl if a Druid and/or Ranger is nearby.

Is that only for bears or other normal neutral animals, too?
If all the Ranger classes have this ability I would recommend it to write it down by the class features. I think, this is good to know, too.

E.g.:
...
- Racial Enemy (+4 to hit vs. a selected foe)
- Stealth
- Neutral animals get not hostile if the Ranger is nearby
...

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#13 Shaitan

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:42 PM

An improved racial enemy would be fine IMO, and as berelinde mentioned: To me also rangers are dex fighters and thus at most use leather armours (light armours).

BTW any thoughts on limiting spells on C/R?

Edited by Shaitan, 17 May 2009 - 10:43 PM.

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#14 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:53 PM

Animal Empathy

I am talking about the general animal behavior, and thus their Scripts.

Conceptually I agree with you, but it can't be implemented because aura-like effects (with cast spell on condition) have been proved to cause a few issues.

Aura-like effect, what? If we make the casting of the spell right, we make the animal cast it on themselves, thus there is no aura-like effect, but script launching one... something like:
IF
   Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
   GlobalTimerExpired("Animal1","LOCAL")
   See(*)
THEN
   RESPONSE #100
	 SetGlobalTimer("Animal1","LOCAL",20)
	 CastSpell(**)
END
...
Where the * is appropriate ranger or druid, and ** is a self targeted spell that makes the animal become neutral if it fails save.

New Description...
" The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden."

Drizit Des'Urdan, who? The game was set to a period in time when Drizzt wasn't dead, yet... so you perhaps might want to look for more appropriate reference, someone who was more generally known(perhaps even Montolio Debrouchee). By the way, Drizzt is Fighter 10 ->Barbarian 1 -> Ranger of Mielikki 5... so in BG1 when the player sets out, he really wasn't that well known ranger...

- Neutral animals get not hostile if the Ranger is nearby...

... unless the animal is hit by the player.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 17 May 2009 - 11:03 PM.

Yes... I am probably still editing the post above.
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#15 Demivrgvs

Demivrgvs

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 12:56 AM

Charm Animal/Animal Empaty

How often would make a sense to charm furries instead of killing them for 500XP?

Well, I'm not the police and I cannot force players to roleplay, but I may add a limited XP reward for a successful use of this ability similarly to how thieves get XP points for disarming traps. I'm not sure how to handle this, but it may be doable.

I'm thinking about replacing Charm/Empathy with a Summon Animal. At least it can provide some fodder. Times when we might be in a need of fodder are slightly greater (even in ToB).

Summon Animal begins to encroach on the Totemic Druid, and the Beast Master...

I do agree with Ice.

Totemic druids can then create aura-giving totems (Warcraft?) instead.

Well, we may discuss it, but surely I won't remove Spirit Animals from Totemic Druid arsenal. I actually have plans to make them scale a lot better so that they are not overpowered in BG1 and useless in ToB.

You've mentioned Drizzt in the sample description. I'm not sure what the current status for BG2 Rangers are, but if you're going to compare them to Drizzt then they've got to be able to get Grand Mastery in Dual Wield. ...

All rangers start with two points into dual weapon style, and it's an hardcoded feature. I may assign them the last point at a certain level though. Your suggested "learn" method is cool, but I'm not going in that direction sorry.

Maybe the ranger could have their normal spell progression, but if you have a druid in the party the ranger will be able to learn spells earlier but at the normal rate... Think of it as the druid is helping the ranger find their green thumb...

Doable? I have no clue...

It can't be done, and it would stress out well establised rules. I don't want to upset too much how D&D class system works.

Racial Enemy & Armor Limitations

An improved racial enemy would be fine IMO, and as berelinde mentioned: To me also rangers are dex fighters and thus at most use leather armours (light armours).

As I said, even if I'd like to improve Racial Enemy feature a lot, I fear there's little I can do except what Refinements did with an HLA.

Regarding armor limitations I'm glad to see we generally agree on this. I'd leave them proficiency in medium armor though, mainly because else Archer and Stalker limitation wouldn't be a disadvantage anymore, but also because medium armor still allows a decent degree of mobility (IR's chain mails can still allow a ranger to perform scout roles while being more armored than a thief).

Casting Ability

BTW any thoughts on limiting spells on C/R?

I'd like to, but that would require a whole revision of how spells are assigned, just like Divine Remix does. I've not time for that unfortunately, thus unless Mike (or any other experienced coder) decides to implement it within SR himself I don't think I'll do it anytime soon.

When it comes to rebalance the appeal of multi, dual and single classes I'm convinced that we can do a lot about that:
- assigning unique abilities at mid-high levels (it pratically never happens in vanilla, where most bonuses are gained right away).
- creating a lot more complex HLA system with many custom tables (Refinements does a good job, and we can further expand this concept). This is the most important thing imo, as by the time you reach 20th level a class generally hasn't much more progression, and considering a fighter/mage can become a fighter20/mage18 with 6mln xp that means currently a single class fighter even at 30th level is too behind the sheer power offered by the multiclass (even with the unnerfed thac0 tables which I don't like).

New Description...

" The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden."

Drizit Des'Urdan, who? The game was set to a period in time when Drizzt wasn't dead, yet... so you perhaps might want to look for more appropriate reference, someone who was more generally known(perhaps even Montolio Debrouchee). By the way, Drizzt is Fighter 10 ->Barbarian 1 -> Ranger of Mielikki 5... so in BG1 when the player sets out, he really wasn't that well known ranger...

Yeah, in 2nd edition he probably was a 16th level ranger, but I'm quite sure he is very well known at the time period the game is set in. Many NPCs knows about him and I remind someone in the party comment about him being famous, not to mention his whole group consists of renowned adventurers.

Anyway I don't care much about this line in the description if it does bother players. I thought mentioning him was the easiest way to add Forgotten Realms lore into the description, and that he does represent well the dual-wielding ranger character who roams the lands.



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