446 replies to this topic

[Demivrgvs]

Ardanis, on 04 April 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

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the difficult task (if not impossible imo) is making its animation not look like a spell-like ability (even as a touch like spell a la Laying on Hands isn't acceptable imo).

Instant activation, coupled with Graphics: Character Animation Change [138] opcode, can get the job done.

That's what I've tried the last time, but I've encountered two problems. I could indeed simulate an attack (I was so happy when I looked at my WS using Breach in melee swinging his sword!), but afaik we cannot make it display the correct animation regardless of weapon type (melee or ranged). If I set the ability with touch range it works for melee weapons, but looks ridiculous for ranged ones. Adding a range instead would make it ridiculous when wielding a melee weapon.

A much lesser but still annoying issue is that even the melee-only solution I tried was almost perfect, but with a noticeable delay between the attack animation (aka the fake damage/hit animation on target) and the actual application of the spell's effects. I hope this issue can be somehow fixed by spending a lot of time tweaking the timing of various things, but the other major issue blocked me from spending further time into this lesser one.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Demivrgvs, on 27 March 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

I think that having a x/day Breach-like feature which doesn't work against PfMW and similar spells isn't much appealing but I may be wrong.

Actually, it works just fine against PfMW, as long as you use normal (non-enchanted) weapons to hit your opponent.

If anything, it's more difficult to remove Mantle and Improved Mantle with it since you need weapons with higher enchantment levels.

[Demivrgvs]

aVENGER_(RR), on 05 April 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Demivrgvs, on 27 March 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

I think that having a x/day Breach-like feature which doesn't work against PfMW and similar spells isn't much appealing but I may be wrong.

Actually, it works just fine against PfMW, as long as you use normal (non-enchanted) weapons to hit your opponent.

If anything, it's more difficult to remove Mantle and Improved Mantle with it since you need weapons with higher enchantment levels.

Yeah, too bad the most dangerous spellcasters (liches) are naturally immune to non-magical weapons, turning PfMW into Absolute Immunity.

Anyway, my point is that if the WS can already hit the mage (either because he's vulnerable to non-magical weapons, or because you have a weapon able to bypass Mantle spells), then a Breach-like effect is not needed, because the mage will be dead in a couple of hits or will be doomed because of Spell Disruption. A Wizard Slayer really needs a Breach-like effect for those cases where he is made inoffensive because of PfMW-like spells, and your solution doesn't work in those cases.

Your Shatter Magic ability can still be somewhat useful (e.g. to tear Stoneskin with a non-magical weapon while facing PfMW), but it's too much situational imo, and somewhat redundant (e.g. Spell Disruption ignores Stoneskin, thus the above mentioned mage is screwed anyway, with or without Stoneskin).

That's why I think Shatter Magic isn't much appealing (though still cool conceptually). It's a Breach-like ability which doesn't work when it's really needed, and works when it's not really needed.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Demivrgvs, on 05 April 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

Yeah, too bad the most dangerous spellcasters (liches) are naturally immune to non-magical weapons, turning PfMW into Absolute Immunity.

That is indeed problematic. If it were up to me, I'd prevent creatures who are naturally immune to normal weapons from casting PfMW and have them use Mantle/Improved Mantle/Absolute Immunity instead.

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Your Shatter Magic ability can still be somewhat useful (e.g. to tear Stoneskin with a non-magical weapon while facing PfMW), but it's too much situational imo, and somewhat redundant (e.g. Spell Disruption ignores Stoneskin, thus the above mentioned mage is screwed anyway, with or without Stoneskin).

This is largely true, but using Shatter Magic to remove combat/specific protections like Stoneskin, Fire Shield and Protection From Normal Missiles can still come in handy, especially at lower levels (BG1). Also, keep in mind that a spell-like ability can only be used once per round, while an on-hit ability can be used several times (depending on your APR) and can potentially affect several different targets (if you divide your attacks between them).

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That's why I think Shatter Magic isn't much appealing (though still cool conceptually).

Conceptually, an on-hit effect makes the most sense, but in gameplay terms, it would probably be more efficient to have it work as a spell-like ability. I chose the first option because it was most fitting for the Wizard Slayer concept which I use in WSR, but using a different approach might indeed be better for KR's version.

Edited by aVENGER_(RR), 05 April 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[Ardanis]

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Actually, it works just fine against PfMW, as long as you use normal (non-enchanted) weapons to hit your opponent.

The root of the problem is that BG is a Game of Enchanted Weapons, not PnP. Carrying normal swords exclusively to deal with PFMW is a bad example of metagaming, because everyone knows they need that abundance of magic weapons to fight >=50% of opponents. It really sounds like cheating to me.


By the way. Regarding spell-like abilities, the more I think about the concept, the less I begin to like it. Where do they come from? A fighter who can cast spells without having a single level in wizard is not the most believable thing.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Ardanis, on 07 April 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

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Actually, it works just fine against PfMW, as long as you use normal (non-enchanted) weapons to hit your opponent.

The root of the problem is that BG is a Game of Enchanted Weapons, not PnP. Carrying normal swords exclusively to deal with PFMW is a bad example of metagaming, because everyone knows they need that abundance of magic weapons to fight >=50% of opponents. It really sounds like cheating to me.

I'll have to disagree with you on that.

Both spells' descriptions clearly state that it's not possible to combine PfMW and PfNW which indicates that you can't be protected from both normal and magical weapons at the same time. Also, if carrying normal weapons is viewed as metagaming, what about non-enchanted ammo then? That's pretty common, even for a late game party.

[Ardanis]

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Both spells' descriptions clearly state that it's not possible to combine PfMW and PfNW which indicates that you can't be protected from both normal and magical weapons at the same time.

Possibly, but I'm of the opinion they can't be combined to avoid obtaining total immunity by anyone via relatively available means (5th and 6th spells).

Besides, it doesn't change the fact that BG2 remains a high level campaign, with lots of enchanted items and immune enemies, mundane weapons serving no other purpose than consuming space in the bag of holding.

If we talk about liches, then, to my limited knowledge, they are supposed to be invincible to a player party in PnP. With what IE allows, I find it perfectly fine to reinforce that notion with innate immunities to normal weapons and Breach. This is also the main reason I always object to suggestions to make liches and rakshasas slightly more susceptible to spell attacks.

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Also, if carrying normal weapons is viewed as metagaming, what about non-enchanted ammo then? That's pretty common, even for a late game party.

Thanks for a tip, it has never occured to me that late parties may suffer from a lack of enchanted ammo. Should have played more with dedicated archers...

[Demivrgvs]

I guess it's time to share what's going on under the hood. I wanted to release the current beta version of KR's fighters this weekend (I've already packaged everything), but then from few WS-related doubts I and Arda (who's now running a BG1 game and should test KR within it) started a mini-revolution. I'll still try to meet my target release during this weekend, as the following suggested changes shouldn't be a huge problem to implement, but the problem is quickly reaching a consensus on what has to be done and what not.

Barbarian & Berserker
I was already really satisfied with what I did, but after discussing the matter again with Arda I'd like to make them even more different. It all comes down to giving them two more distinct concepts.

Berserker: we suggest to make it pretty much be our version of PnP Frenzied Berserker, thus a less "reliable" but almost unstoppable killing machine.

Barbarian: this instead should be a variant of the true fighter, less skilled with weapons and combat tactics (unlike fighters he lacks martial training), less armored (heavy armors don't fit his wild style of combat), but stronger, faster and tougher - the pinnacle of "physicality". Unlike Berserker's rage his version should be less "supernatural" (e.g. less immunities), a temporary surge of adrenaline which boosts his already exceptional physical prowness (aka he fights beyond his limits for a short time and then ends up winded) rather than Berserker's inhuman reckless rampage.

Anyway, let's get into details.

Berserker
If you ask me, concept wise, the Berserker should have been a Barbarian's kit, not a Fighter kit, but I guess suggesting that is too daring. On one hand keeping Berserker's heavy armor proficiency and grandmastery helps differentiating the two classes, otoh it prevents the class to truly behave as per PnP imo. For example I cannot give it an Improved Power Attack, because unlike PnP it would stack with Fighter's superior weapon skill (aka grandmastery's higher dmg output and faster attack rate), making it kinda OP imo. Thus, let's assume we want it to remain a fighter, and focus on what can be done to further differentiating it from a Barbarian:

+ frenzy (or the improved versions at higher levels) may get additional immunities (e.g. he cannot be slowed, entangled, pinned, nauseated, etc.).
+ at higher levels (either at 10th lvl with the first rage upgrade or even later on) he gets PnP Deathless Frenzy. This pratically means that while frenzied a berserker can be brought down to 0 hp (technically it will be 1) but he is still able to fight; if not cured at the end of the rage the berserker will be knocked unconscious (as he takes 10-20 stunning damage when the rage ends).
- while enraged he not only suffer -2 penalty to AC but also a penalty to reflex based saves (aka saves vs. breath). Within PnP a frenzied berserker automatically fail those saves, and while I would not opt for such a drastic drawback (should I?), I do agree with the concept. An enraged Berserker doesn't dodge an incoming Fireball, he charges right through it toward the stupid mage who dared to scratch him.
- PnP berserker's major drawback, loss of control (aka 'berserk' opcode) should be implemented imo, but to a lesser extent, as we don't want it to become an almost unplayable class as its PnP version. It should be triggered either by a low hp %, or when struck by an opponent (I vote for the latter as per PnP) but it should allow a relatively easy will save (e.g. at +4 bonus) and/or last no more than a bunch of rounds imo, because we don't want it to be almost always out of control, only to be somewhat unpredictable/unreliable. Note that while out of control the frenzied berserker will get additional +2 to hit/dmg (as per opcode), thus this aspect will make it potentially more dangerous than a fighter even when not fully enraged!

- We also discussed to add PnP subdual damage to Berserker's Frenzy, which should simulates berserker's reckless attitude while enraged, but I'm not sure I like it because of the damage animation (I'll test negative regeneration rate though), and also because I think AC and saves vs. breath penalties would already perform such role, making the character more likely to get hit or heavily damaged.
- Within PnP Frenzied Berserker rage also grants +1 apr, and his Power Attack (aka KR Fighter's Offensive Stance) grants more damage than common fighters, but I would not opt for these unless we decide to make this class a "barbarian's kit" (aka limited to specialization). Within PnP the Frenzied Berserker is a barbarian's PrC, thus it normally doesn't get neither fighter's superior weapon skill nor his proficiency with heavy armors. Getting +1 apr and an Improved Power Attack is too much imo.

Barbarian
I was thinking to suggest making his rage look once again similar to his vanilla/PnP version, but merging it with the current KR's concept (which in turn is based upon PnP PHBII and Pathfinder's ideas). Short story: making it grant +x to STR & CON (vanilla's rage granted +4 to these two stats), but adding to it +x to DEX (to replace the current bonus to AC), movement rate and save vs. breath.

While writing the above I remembered why I changed it to the current concept (which doesn't increase stats):
* stat tables are a mess, thus +x to STR, DEX and CON gives highly variable results
* +x to STR and CON makes this rage very similar to Berseker's one (improved dmg and hit points)

So, which concept do you prefer?


Kensai/Weapon Master
Almost nothing has changed here, though I've altered its base +2 AC bonus to make it work only against melee attacks, to stress the concept that ranged combat is one of his worst weaknesses, and that such AC bonus is a parry-like effect, not an armor-like one.

Arda suggests to make this kit immune to fear as per PnP, but I'll let him convince you because I'm not.


Wizard Slayer
Short story: here I have a problem similar to the whole Berserker=Barbarian issue. The Inquisitor is pretty much a better Wizard Slayer.

So, as an effort to make the two classes more different I was thinking to suggest limiting the WS to light armors (instead of heavy ones) and giving it back mastery (+++) in weapons (with KR's GM table it means getting +1 to hit and +1/2 apr). This way the WS would at least look different, as a faster and more skilled warrior. What do you think?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 19 June 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[leania]

WoW! It's amazing news indeed.

IMO all changes are fine especially WS's case because I've suggest that WS should be allowed to get higher proficiency than ++.

When you finish revising all of Fighters including Paladins and Rangers, you will be able to make more distiction/difference between WS and Inquisitor I guess. But, the revisions are fully suficient for me as mini-KR mod!

BTW I have a small opinion for WS. You've mentioned to give WS Detect Illusions-like skill. I think it's cool idea, however, we should make the skill more "natural" ability rather than magical thing. So it might be different from the "Detect Illusions"-like spells in aspect of performing mechanism or something like that.

[Ardanis]

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- Within PnP Frenzied Berserker rage also grants +1 apr, and his Power Attack (aka KR Fighter's Offensive Stance) grants more damage than common fighters, but I would not opt for these unless we decide to make this class a "barbarian's kit" (aka limited to specialization). Within PnP the Frenzied Berserker is a barbarian's PrC, thus it normally doesn't get neither fighter's superior weapon skill nor his proficiency with heavy armors. Getting +1 apr and an Improved Power Attack is too much imo.

I would point out, however, that PnP berserker is not prohibited to take four levels in fighter and get the Weapon Specialization feat for themselves. And tecnhically our FB remains a fighter kit.

More importantly, what are the other benifits? +2 thaco/damage, immunity to mental afflictions and Web(?)/Entangle. I might be mistaken, but imo berserk frenzy ought to give more.


Kensai
As Demi has said, really. Fear effects are worse in BG1 than in BG2, and in case of kensai can be lethal, because he has no armor to protect him until panic ends.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian

leania, on 19 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

IMO all changes are fine especially WS's case because I've suggest that WS should be allowed to get higher proficiency than ++.

What about Barbarian's rage? Which solution do you prefer between the previously discussed one (lowered thac0 but improved apr, movement and reflexes) or the latest suggestion (increased STR, DEX & CON)? This is actually by biggest doubt atm, and thus the thing I'd like most players to comment on.

Wizard Slayer

leania, on 19 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

When you finish revising all of Fighters including Paladins and Rangers, you will be able to make more distiction/difference between WS and Inquisitor I guess.

Actually I've already done something about paladins, and I don't expect Inquisitors to change that much (e.g. the current Dispel Magic may get a couple of PnP based tweaks; SR V4 True Seeing will be much more balanced and true to PnP by itself), thus if we want to make both kits viable it's the Wizard Slayer the one to tweak the most imo.

leania, on 19 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

BTW I have a small opinion for WS. You've mentioned to give WS Detect Illusions-like skill. I think it's cool idea, however, we should make the skill more "natural" ability rather than magical thing. So it might be different from the "Detect Illusions"-like spells in aspect of performing mechanism or something like that.

Ideally it should have been as Thief's Detect Illusion skill, but being unable to do that I opted to make it an innate ability. Back then I thought about two possible alternatives:
a) making it a permanent/passive ability
b) making WS dispel illusions on hit
The problem is that a) is difficult to balance, quickly going from too weak (short range? low % chance to detect illusions?) or to too powerful (being permanent and passive means that even having a 50% chance to dispel illusions on sight each round would get kinda OP imo), and b) seemed too magical in nature to be an ability of a fighter kit.

Berserker

Ardanis, on 19 June 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

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- Within PnP Frenzied Berserker rage also grants +1 apr, and his Power Attack (aka KR Fighter's Offensive Stance) grants more damage than common fighters, but I would not opt for these unless we decide to make this class a "barbarian's kit" (aka limited to specialization). Within PnP the Frenzied Berserker is a barbarian's PrC, thus it normally doesn't get neither fighter's superior weapon skill nor his proficiency with heavy armors. Getting +1 apr and an Improved Power Attack is too much imo.

I would point out, however, that PnP berserker is not prohibited to take four levels in fighter and get the Weapon Specialization feat for themselves. And tecnhically our FB remains a fighter kit.

The equivalent of Grandmastery within 3E is Greater Weapon Specialization, which requires 12 fighter levels. Anyway, my point is just that I really fear giving Berserker higher apr on top of Grandmastery and increased damage from his rage could make the kit kinda OP.

Ardanis, on 19 June 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

More importantly, what are the other benifits? +2 thaco/damage, immunity to mental afflictions and Web(?)/Entangle. I might be mistaken, but imo berserk frenzy ought to give more.

It's not just +2 thaco/damage, but +2 thac0, and +4 damage, which then rises to +4 thac0 and +6 damage when enraged and berserking!! Then you get 10-20 temporary hit points early on, or straight temporary "immortality" at higher levels. Add to that immunity to all mind affecting spells, entangle/web or similar effects, slow, stinking cloud or similar nauseating effects, etc. Pratically the only real counters to an enraged Berserker are Grease (even in PnP it's one of the best counter), Fog Cloud or similar utility spells, insta-kill effects (but his saves vs. death are extremely good) or raw damage (but you have to hope he doesn't destroy you before his rage expires because while enraged he simply won't die from injuries).

[leania]

Demivrgvs, on 20 June 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Barbarian

leania, on 19 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

IMO all changes are fine especially WS's case because I've suggest that WS should be allowed to get higher proficiency than ++.

What about Barbarian's rage? Which solution do you prefer between the previously discussed one (lowered thac0 but improved apr, movement and reflexes) or the latest suggestion (increased STR, DEX & CON)? This is actually by biggest doubt atm, and thus the thing I'd like most players to comment on.

I prefer to take the previous one because STR/CON bonuses are likely to similar with the berserker's frenzy ability (+THAC0/dmg/and additional health).

Demivrgvs, on 20 June 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Wizard Slayer

leania, on 19 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

When you finish revising all of Fighters including Paladins and Rangers, you will be able to make more distiction/difference between WS and Inquisitor I guess.

Actually I've already done something about paladins, and I don't expect Inquisitors to change that much (e.g. the current Dispel Magic may get a couple of PnP based tweaks; SR V4 True Seeing will be much more balanced and true to PnP by itself), thus if we want to make both kits viable it's the Wizard Slayer the one to tweak the most imo.

leania, on 19 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

BTW I have a small opinion for WS. You've mentioned to give WS Detect Illusions-like skill. I think it's cool idea, however, we should make the skill more "natural" ability rather than magical thing. So it might be different from the "Detect Illusions"-like spells in aspect of performing mechanism or something like that.

Ideally it should have been as Thief's Detect Illusion skill, but being unable to do that I opted to make it an innate ability. Back then I thought about two possible alternatives:
a) making it a permanent/passive ability
b) making WS dispel illusions on hit
The problem is that a) is difficult to balance, quickly going from too weak (short range? low % chance to detect illusions?) or to too powerful (being permanent and passive means that even having a 50% chance to dispel illusions on sight each round would get kinda OP imo), and b) seemed too magical in nature to be an ability of a fighter kit.

IMO a is the best solution and is reasonable for Fighter. However, as you mentioned, we should consider to balance the innate ability.

[leania]

Hmm... I thought for the WS's innate ability and finally I reached an idea.

As you gives True Fighter Defensive/Offensive Stance, we can consider that WS also have some "special stance" to compete with casters.

That is, if WS changes his stance to the special stance, he will obtain specific innate abilities such as Detect Illusion-like ability while he will lose some physical ability(e.g., increase AC or lose movement speed...). The stance change should need Cooldown so WS can't switch the stance again immediately.

As True Fighter can change his stance according to the situation (aka the priority between Attack and Defense), WS may change his stance according to the importance of whether physical strength is more required or anti-magical ability is more needed.

[Ardanis]

Barbarian
I'm for +STR/CON/DEX.

Berserker

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It's not just +2 thaco/damage, but +2 thac0, and +4 damage, which then rises to +4 thac0 and +6 damage when enraged and berserking!! Then you get 10-20 temporary hit points early on, or straight temporary "immortality" at higher levels. Add to that immunity to all mind affecting spells, entangle/web or similar effects, slow, stinking cloud or similar nauseating effects, etc. Pratically the only real counters to an enraged Berserker are Grease (even in PnP it's one of the best counter), Fog Cloud or similar utility spells, insta-kill effects (but his saves vs. death are extremely good) or raw damage (but you have to hope he doesn't destroy you before his rage expires because while enraged he simply won't die from injuries).

Actually, I thought it was supposed to be +2 thaco/damage and +2 more from berserk. Since berserk state is less useful and doesn't always trigger, I'd call it +1 bonus on average. So in total we have +3 thaco/damage, which is equivalent to 3E's bonus from +6 STR in PnP.

Also, I wouldn't give HP bonus at all, increase AC penalty (and maybe save vs breath as well) to PnP's -4, and limit the duration to 5-6 rounds.


Wizard Slayer

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As you gives True Fighter Defensive/Offensive Stance, we can consider that WS also have some "special stance" to compete with casters.

That is very nice idea, by the way.

Better yet - and Demi has already sort of suggested it in PM - the idea is that each fighter kit (and Barb) should receive one stance, and a true fighter gets them all. Berserker - Power Attack, kensai - Combat Expertise, barb - Whirlwind Attack, wizard slayer - hmm...

I suppose trading thaco for bonus to saves is not very original.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian

Ardanis, on 20 June 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'm for +STR/CON/DEX.

After thinking about it a little more I actually think I don't like this solution. Not only +x to STR/DEX/CON gives highly variable results, but I fear such solution would make it really too much similar to cleric/paladin's Draw Upon Divine Might, sharing the very same effects and even the fatigue effect at the end.

Btw, just to remind everyone, PnP Whirling Frenzy would be only +x to STR, and then work pretty much as my old/original suggestion (the one I posted in the first post of this topic).

I still haven't clear one thing, how would the AI react if only Berserker's rage grants a full mind shield effect? In theory Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy shouldn't even get the bonus to will saves!

Berserker

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Actually, I thought it was supposed to be +2 thaco/damage and +2 more from berserk. Since berserk state is less useful and doesn't always trigger, I'd call it +1 bonus on average. So in total we have +3 thaco/damage, which is equivalent to 3E's bonus from +6 STR in PnP.

You mean +1/+1 for the "BG1 rage" and then +2/+2 for the greater rage at 10th lvl? My problem with it is that it looks unimpressive by itself. It looks fine when taking into account the additional +2 from berserking (yellow circle), but afaik we want the latter effect to not be there too often, don't we?

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Also, I wouldn't give HP bonus at all, increase AC penalty (and maybe save vs breath as well) to PnP's -4, and limit the duration to 5-6 rounds.

Why removing the HP increase? They are there to keep the mid-low lvl berserker alive despite his reckless attitude. Not to mention such HP increase is what makes the rage dangerous when expiring, because losing 10-20 HP can easily knockout the character if already heavily injured.

Fine with reducing duration if necessary.

Regarding the AC penalty, I was thinking to follow PnP Reckless Rage idea, and make the Berserker get additional -2 AC penalty when berserking (yellow circle), which stacks with his rage -2 AC penalty. Increasing save vs. breath penalty is fine too imo.

On a side note, I've currently added this "Furthermore, an enraged berserker cannot be entangled, paralyzed, slowed, or stunned." to Berserker's description.

Wizard Slayer

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As you gives True Fighter Defensive/Offensive Stance, we can consider that WS also have some "special stance" to compete with casters.

That is very nice idea, by the way.


Better yet - and Demi has already sort of suggested it in PM - the idea is that each fighter kit (and Barb) should receive one stance, and a true fighter gets them all. Berserker - Power Attack, kensai - Combat Expertise, barb - Whirlwind Attack, wizard slayer - hmm...

Sort of yes, though I'm not 100% sure.

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I suppose trading thaco for bonus to saves is not very original.

Yeah. Right now I cannot really imagine a "fighting stance" for a WS, especially one which should for some reason give anti-mage effects.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 20 June 2012 - 02:14 PM.