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Kit Revisions (Fighters)


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#1 Demivrgvs

Demivrgvs

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:22 AM

The aim obviously is to revise kits/classes to make each of them as much interesting and balanced as possible. Furthermore BG2 kits clearly didn't take into account BG1, and I'd like to "rectify" this too for BGT/TuTu players.

True Fighter
"The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king, all are fighters. Fighters can be stalwart defenders of those in need, cruel marauders, or gutsy adventurers. Some are among the land's best souls, willing to face death for the greater good. Others are among the worst, those who have no qualms about killing for private gain, or even for sport. Fighters who are not actively adventuring may be soldiers, guards, bodyguards, champions, or criminal enforcers. An adventuring fighter might call himself a warrior, a mercenary, a thug, or simply an adventurer.

Though fighters can be found in nearly every part of Faerun, those who are truly skilled are well-respected for their abilities. While many fighters operate on their own or as parts of informally organized groups, others hold themselves to a higher ideal and are part of knightly orders. These include such renowned groups as the Purple Dragons of Cormyr, the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin, and, in the past, the Champions Vigilant of Helm.


Fighters can become skilled in the use of many types of weapons and armor, and learn a variety of fighting styles and field tactics, making them highly proficient in the ways of battle and extremely versatile."

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in any weapon proficiency.
- Can wear all types of armor.
- At 1st level, can use Offensive Stance and Defensive Stance at will. These abilities improve significantly at levels 10 and 19.
- At 4th level, can use Called Shot once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.
- At 5th level, becomes proficient (+) in the use of all types of weapons.
- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to an additional whole attack per round at 13th level.
- At 11th level, gains the Tactician feat. This ability improves significantly at levels 14 and 17.
- At 15th level, can use Hardiness once per day.

OFFENSIVE STANCE: While in an offensive stance, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to damage, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Attacks made with the off hand suffer additional -2 penalty. This stance lasts for 6 rounds and cannot be combined with Defensive Stance.
At 10th and 19th level, the effects increase by 1, to a +4 bonus to damage and a -4 penalty to attack rolls at level 19.

DEFENSIVE STANCE: While in a defensive stance, the fighter gains +2 bonus to AC, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Casting speed and movement rate suffer a -2 penalty while fighting defensively. This stance lasts for 6 rounds and cannot be combined with Offensive Stance.
At 10th and 19th level, the effects increase by 1, to a +4 bonus to AC and a -4 penalty to attack rolls at level 19.

CALLED SHOT: When making a Called Shot, a warrior attempts to hamper fighting ability or mobility. For one round, the fighter takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but his first successful attack carries dire consequences for his opponent. Targets struck are allowed a save at +2 bonus to reduce the effects. At 8th level and every other 4 levels the saving throw difficulty class improves by 2, up to -4 penalty at 16th level.

CALLED SHOT (DISARM): With this attack, the fighter chooses to impede fighting ability. When hit, the target will suffer a -4 penalty to hit rolls for 6 rounds. If a save vs. breath is made the duration is halved.
At 10th level, any target who fails the save is also unable to attack for 1 round.
At 19th level, any target who fails the save will also have his strength reduced by 50% for 1 turn.

CALLED SHOT (TRIP): With this attack, the fighter chooses to impede mobility. When hit, the target will suffer a -50% penalty to movement speed for 6 rounds. If a save vs. death is made the duration is halved.
At 10th level, any target who fails the save is also knocked down for 1 round.
At 19th level, any target who fails the save will also have his dexterity reduced by 50% for 1 turn.

TACTICIAN: Allies within 15 feet of the fighter gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls. Bonuses from multiple fighters are cumulative.
At 14th level, the ability also grants a +1 bonus to AC.
At 17th level, the ability also grants a +1 bonus to damage.

HARDINESS: Calling upon hidden reserves of strength during times of danger, the fighter gains 20% resistance to all forms of damage for 10 rounds.

Notes:
The concept of KR's Fighter is simple: he is a versatile soldier, master of all kind of weapons, maneuvers and cooperative combat.
- Revised Grandmastery will finally make sure that all fighters can stand out as the most skilled with weapons, much more than other warriors. This is achieved by making Grandmastery much more powerful than vanilla BG2 (as per PnP), and by removing some fighting skill to other warriors (+1/2 apr is moved from specialization to mastery, thus the difference between fighters and barbarian/paladins/rangers will now be a whole attack per round instead of just 1/2 apr).
- Offensive Stance & Defensive Stance are almost perfect copies of the two most classic PnP fighter's feats, Power Attack and Combat Expertise respectively.
- Called Shots (the link refers to Pathfinder's rules for such ability but I actually based it more on AD&D Complete Fighter Handbook) are the most powerful and interesting addition imo. There is much room to expand and refine them, but even in their current status they should be a quite great addition.
- Weapon Training, aka proficiency with any weapon at 5th lvl, is another way to highlight Fighter's versatility (other warriors can still use any weapon they're not proficient with suffering only -2 penalty to attack rolls - aka better than non-warriors). The Kensai has superior melee power, the Archer dominates from range, but the Fighter can adapt to any situation.
- the Tactician feature (largely inspired by Pathfinder's Tactician archetype) is there to make the Fighter shine as a cooperative combatant. Feedback on this particular aspect would be extremely welcome as it's the most daring change I've made imo.


Barbarian
"From the frozen lands of The North and the hellish jungles of Chult in the south come brave, even reckless, warriors. Civilized people call them barbarians or berserkers and suspect them of mayhem, impiety, and atrocities. While undoubtedly feral and unpredictable by the nature of their rages, barbarians are not necessarily uncultured brutes and have time and time again proven their cunning and resourcefulness as well as sheer physical power and endurance. Sometimes, in spite of their aversion to order, barbarians even demonstrate honor.

Barbarians are common within several organizations within Faerun, such as the Uthgardt warriors of the Silver Marches and Icewind Dale, the primal warriors of the Reghed Glacier, the wild tribes of the Chondalwood, and the famous berserkers of Rashemen and its neighboring regions. Contrary to common belief, not all warriors who live outside civilization's borders are barbarians. Only those who embrace the wild and primal ways of the rage can rightly call themselves barbarian, imbuing them with a wild spirit not found amongst other warriors.


Where the fighter has training and discipline, the barbarian has a powerful rage, and once in this whirling frenzy, he becomes a true maelstrom of devastation, better able to defeat his foes and withstand their attacks. These adrenaline surges leave him winded, and he only has the energy for a few such spectacular displays per day, but those few are usually sufficient."

Advantages:
- Rolls d12 for hit points.
- Is immune to backstabbing.
- At 1st level, can enter a Barbarian Rage once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 10 and 19.
- At 3rd level, gains Cleave. This ability improves significantly at level 9.
- At 5th level, gains Feral Senses.
- At 11th level, gains 10% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile damage. At 14th and 17th level, this increases by an additional 5%.
- At 15th level, can use Whirlwind Attack once per day.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear plate mail or full plate armor, nor use large shields.
- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.
- Cannot use Defensive Stance.
- Cannot use Called Shot.
- Cannot dual class.

BARBARIAN RAGE: While raging, the barbarian gains an extra attack per round and a +2 bonus to damage, AC, movement speed, and saves vs. breath. However, he suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and loses the capacity to perform actions that require concentration, like remaining hidden.
After 5 rounds, the effects of the rage wear off and the warrior becomes fatigued for 5 rounds. While fatigued, the barbarian suffers a -2 penalty to AC, damage, attack rolls, and movement speed, and cannot re-enter the enraged state.
At 10th level, the benefits gained from raging increase to a +3 bonus to damage, AC, movement speed, and saves vs. breath. The rage lasts one and a half additional round.
At 19th level, the benefits gained from raging increase to a +4 bonus to damage, AC, movement speed, and saves vs. breath. The rage lasts one and a half additional round.

CLEAVE: The barbarian can let the momentum from a deadly melee attack carry his weapon into another foe.
Once per round, if the barbarian deals enough damage to a creature to kill it, he gains an extra attack in his next round.
At 6th level, the barbarian can quickly charge another target after felling a foe, gaining +2 bonus to movement rate and attack rolls.
At 9th level, the barbarian gains two extra attacks instead of one after felling each foe.

FERAL SENSES: The barbarian relies on his other senses to fight in conditions of poor light or total darkness, ignoring the penalties associated with blindness. While enraged, the barbarian also gains the ability to detect the presense of invisible creatures within 15 feet.

WHIRLWIND ATTACK: For 2 rounds, movement and attack rate are doubled, but all attacks are made with a -2 penalty to hit and damage rolls.

Notes:
KR's Barbarian is mostly based on AD&D Complete Barbarian Handbook but in an effort to make Barbarian and Berserker classes really different I've slightly altered both rages.
- KR's Barbarian Rage now works as the official variant rage, Whirling Frenzy, instead of vanilla's Barbarian Rage (+4 STR & CON, +2 bonus to saves vs. spell, -2 AC penalty - aka 3E rage). Both rages now break invisibility and prevent the user from doing almost anything which isn't fighting (cannot cast spells, turn undead, hide in shadows, use quick items, and so on), as per PnP. Last but not least, the Barbarian now gets fatigued after raging (only the Berserker was fatigued after enraging in vanilla).
- Cleave is the closest implementation possible of the classic PnP feat. Its two upgrades instead need some feedback, are open to discussion and might be replaced in future versions.
- Feral Senses is an implementation of AD&D Blind-Fighting non-weapon proficiency (or Blind-Fight feat in 3E), mixed with Pathfinder's Scent rage power (mind you D&D Next will implement the very same thing).
- I had previously split the 10% Physical Resistance at 11th level into 5% at 7th and 5% at 11th (a la 3E), but Ardanis convinced me to revert the change. At 10th level Barbarians stop gaining d12 hit points at level up, thus starting to get physical resistance there can be seen as its natural continuation.
- Swift Foot, Fearless Rage, Scent and Rolling Dodge were all planned implementations of Pathfinder's Rage Powers, but I've currently removed them (merging Swift Foot into the base rage, and Scent into Blind-Fighting) in favor of a more simple class template.


Berserker
"Berserkers are warriors in tune with their animalistic side and, during combat, can achieve an ecstatic state of mind that will enable them to fight longer, harder and more savagely than any humanoid has a right to. Unlike most others, Berserkers usually do not fight to achieve a heroic goal or defeat a loathsome villain. Those are mere excuses, it is the thrill of combat that draws them. For Berserkers, the insanity of battle is like an addictive drug - they must constantly seek out more conflict to feed their craving for battle.

Berserkers are common amongst dwarves, known to them as 'Battleragers'. Members of this elite order are usually covered in scars, runes and tattoos, and scream out battle cries as they charge recklessly forward into battle. They live in the fringes of Dwarven society, kept away from children for their strange ways; heroic stories are told about them, but the Battlerager is short lived, having full belief that if they die, the Dwarven gods of battle will bring them back stronger than before. Berserkers are never lawful. They may be honorable, but at heart they are wild. This wildness is their strength, and it could not live in a lawful soul. At best, chaotic berserkers are free and expressive. At worst, they are thoughtlessly destructive.

Berserkers live in the thick of melee combat, fighting with more ferocity than any other warrior, charging forward when others would run away, laughing when others would cry, and somehow surviving when others would die
."

Advantages:
- At 1st level, can use Berserker Rage once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 10, and 19.
- At 2nd level, gains Reckless Offensive.
- At 5th level, gains Intimidating Rage.
- At 11th level, gains Diehard.
- At 15th level, can use Power Attack once per day.
- At 20th level, can use Deathless Frenzy once per day.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot use missile weapons.
- Cannot use Defensive Stance.
- Cannot use Called Hits.

BERSERKER RAGE: While enraged, the berserker gains 10 temporary hit points and a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage, and saves vs. death, but he suffers a -2 penalty to AC and saves vs. breath. While in this state of mind the berserker becomes immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities like charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, hold, and sleep, but loses the capacity to perform actions that require concentration, like casting spells or using thieving skills.
After 5 rounds, the effects of the rage wear off and the warrior becomes fatigued for 5 rounds. While fatigued, the berserker suffers a -2 penalty to AC, damage, attack rolls, and movement speed, and cannot re-enter the enraged state.
At 10th level, while enraged, the berserker gains 20 temporary hit points and a +3 bonus to attack rolls, damage, and saves vs. death. The rage lasts one and a half additional round.
At 19th level, while enraged, the berserker gains 30 temporary hit points and a +4 bonus to attack rolls, damage, and saves vs. death. The rage lasts one and a half additional round.

RECKLESS OFFENSIVE: When using Offensive Stance, the berserker gains twice as much additional damage, but suffers an additional -2 penalty to armor class and saves vs. breath.

INTIMIDATING RAGE: the berserker's fury engenders fear in his enemies. While enraged, any opponent within 15 feet must save vs. death or suffer a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls.

DIEHARD: When reduced below 50% of his maximum hit points the berserker is able to regain 1 hit point every round.
At 14th level, the berserker regains 2 hit points every round.
At 17th level, the berserker regains 3 hit points every round.

POWER ATTACK: For 2 rounds, the berserker throws tremendous power into each strike. Any opponent hit by one of these attacks must save vs. death at a -4 penalty or be stunned for 2 rounds.

DEATHLESS FRENZY: For 3 rounds, the berserker's hit points cannot be lowered below 1, and he gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, but he fights with reckless abandon, blindly attacking anything perceived to be a foe.

Notes:
KR's version of this kit is clearly based upon PnP Frenzied Berserker.
- Berserker's Rage is the least changed of the two rages, but it now performs as a mix of vanilla's Rage (+2 bonus to hit/dmg/AC, mind shield and various immunities) and PnP Frenzied Berserker's one. Unlike the Barbarian this kit will still have immunity to mind affecting effects, but I've removed the convenient and out-of-place immunities to level drain, maze and imprisonment.
- Frenzy is the most player-friendly implementation I could imagine of the infamous Frenzied Berserker feature.
- Intimidating Rage is a pre-requisite feat to get the Berserker PrC in PnP, and it is indeed a very appropriate feature for this savage and fearsome warrior imo.
- my take on PnP Diehard is an alternative solution to Barbarian resistance to damage. I've used it because I think it fits the concept and I like variety, but considering the Berserker should have been a Barbarian kit in the first place, I could as well give him damage resistance if feedback on Berserker's regeneration will be negative.


Kensai
"Kensai is the original Kara-Turian name of what most people in Faerun would call, a Weapon Master. These fighters are trained in an ancient school of martial fighting which uses an esoteric force known as ki to increase the lethality in combat. A Weapon Master's goal is to unite his weapon with his body, and be able to use it without conscious effort as naturally as he would use any other limb. For such a fighter, the perfection of ki is found in the complete mastery of body, mind, weapon, and will.

Weapons Masters are often held in high regard, especially in Kara-Tur, where they are known as Kensai - 'sword saints' - but are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. These warriors are devoted to refine their skills and their mind following strict and severe trainings, and are often incredibly disciplined as a result. Thus the path of the Weapon Master is not suited to characters of chaotic nature.


When wielding their favored weapons Weapon Masters exhibit an uncanny amount of control and finesse, striking with more accuracy blows that are more lethal than those of any other warrior. They are deadly and fast, and are trained to fight without encumbrance, as they consider armor the crutch of the martially unskilled."

Advantages:
- At 1st level, gains a pool of Ki he can use once per day to perform various abilities. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 10 and 19.
- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with melee weapons. For every 4 levels, this bonus increases by +1, up to +5 at 16th level.
- At 1st level, gains a +2 bonus to AC vs. melee weapons. At 11th, 14th, and 17th level, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
- At 2nd level, gains a +2 bonus to weapon speed factor.
- At 15th level, can use Deathblow once per day.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear armor, gauntlets, or helmets, nor use shields.
- Cannot use missile weapons.
- Cannot use Offensive Stance.
- Cannot use Called Shot.

KI POOL: With this ability, the Kensai focuses his ki for a short time, allowing him to accomplish amazing feats.

KI POOL (KI STRIKE): With this ability, the Kensai gains +4 bonus to attack rolls for 1 round.
At 5th level, the Kensai deals maximum damage on each hit for 1 round.

KI POOL (KI STEP): With this ability, the Kensai can move at twice his base speed for 1 round.
At 10th level, the Kensai can position himself out of harm's way mere seconds before an energy discharge reaches him, and avoid effects such as breath attacks, fireball spells and the like.

KI POOL (KI DODGE): With this ability, the Kensai gains +4 bonus to AC for 1 round.
At 19th level, the Kensai can dodge or deflect all weapon attacks.

DEATHBLOW: When this ability is activated, for one round, the warrior takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls as she searches for the perfect opening. The first successful melee attack made in the round will instantly slay any creature who fails a save vs. death.

Notes:
My main sources of inspiration for this kit are Pathfinder's Kensai (ironically it's pretty much BG's infamous "kensage" dual combo) and Pathfinder's Weapon Master, which is very similar to 3E Oriental Adventure's Kensei.
- Kensai can now use bracers to improve their AC.
- progression of thac0/damage bonuses has been changed (from "+1/3 lvls starting at 3rd" to "+1/4 lvls starting at 1st") to make the class more appealing in BG1, and to not overlap with other bonuses (at 3rd, 6th and 9th lvl a Kensai already achieve Mastery, High Mastery and Grandmastery). Furthermore, these bonuses won't be applied to thrown melee weapons anymore.
- I've renamed Kai into Ki Strike (what the hell is KAI?) and then merged it into a more versatile pool of abilities, the Ki Pool.
- vanilla's +2 AC has been changed to work only against melee attacks, but now it also slightly improves at higher levels.


Wizard Slayer
"Magic is evil. Magic tempts. Magic corrupts. Wizard Slayers believe that mortals are too irresponsible to wield magic, and thus train their body and their mind to fight those foolish users. Wizard Slayers can take up any standard or philosophy, though they tend more toward chaos than law. Evil Wizard Slayers hunt down and kill the most powerful users of magic that they can find, as if to demonstrate the ultimate weakness of the wizard and the sorcerer. Good Wizard Slayers commit themselves to expunging evil sorcery from their world, but they too see themselves as examples of how mundane strength can conquer foul enchantments.

Though Wizard Slayers are well aware of the dangers of magic and won't succumb to its siren call of power, some eventually learn to tolerate their companions' magic. A few claim that they are leading by example; others rationalize that only by consorting with lesser villains they can defeat greater ones; only a handful accept that in the right hands magic can even be used to good ends.


Wizard Slayers are excellent fighters, but they sacrifice extensive martial trainings preferring to dedicate themselves to anti-magic skills. These warriors become innately resistant to magic, and develop abilities which allow them to withstand, hamper, and slain any spellcaster who dares to cross their path."

Advantages:
- Gains a +2 bonus to saves vs. spell.
- At 1st level, can use Disruptive Strike once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at level 10.
- At 1st level, can use Inner Focus once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 10 and 19.
- At 5th level, gains Magical Defense.
- At 11th level, gains a 10% resistance to magic. At 14th and 17th level, this resistance increases by an additional 5%.
- At 15th level, can use Resist Magic once per day.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear heavy armor, nor use large shields.
- Cannot use Offensive Stance or Defensive Stance.
- Cannot use Called Shot.
- Cannot dual class to mage.

DISRUPTIVE STRIKE: During the round when this ability is activated, any successful melee or ranged hit on an arcane spellcaster imposes a non-cumulative 40% spell failure penalty, lasting 3 rounds.
At 10th level, the wizard slayer becomes able to break through the magical defenses of arcane spellcasters when performing a Disruptive Strike. Each successful hit during the round removes one combat protection from his target.

INNER FOCUS: Concentrating all his fortitude, agility and mental resistance, the wizard slayer is able to withstand, dodge, or resist almost any type of magical threat. During the round when this ability is activated, the wizard slayer becomes immune to all spells of 4th level or lower.
At 10th level, the wizard slayer becomes immune to all spells of 7th level or lower when using Inner Focus.
At 19th level, the wizard slayer becomes immune to all spells of 9th level or lower when using Inner Focus.

MAGICAL DEFENSE: A wizard slayer's constant training in countering arcane spells manifests itself as a +2 bonus to all saves made against spells cast by practitioners of arcane magic.

RESIST MAGIC: This ability grants the warrior +50% magic resistance for 5 rounds.

Notes:
Quoting Mike I could say that "I don't really like the idea of being restricted from items that are magical. It seems like a fairly dumb philosophy to me which would require that characters who are wizard slayers are either stupid or ignorant. Since most other WS adjusting mods keep this feature of the class, I think it would be nice to go in a different direction". The concept of the class is a sort of mix between AD&D WS (which was a magic hater barbarian's kit) and 3E Occult Slayer. I've tried to stay away from making the class able to use magical spell-like abilities and keep it as martial as possible.
- I've changed vanilla's spell failure (cumulative 10% chance on each hit) into the x/day Disruptive Strike. The ability now has a much higher effectiveness, and further improves at higher levels into a Breaching Strike.
- Magic Resistance is now gained similarly to Barbarian's physical one. It may seem lower than most other WS versions around (though on par with vanilla's one) but KR's wizard slayers can use any magical item to increase this innate ability, and KR's HLAs will further increase it.
- the WS now gets +2 bonus to saves vs. spell at 1st level (a sort of Iron Will). This partially makes up for the loss of magic resistance at low levels, but most importantly it contributes to create a multi layered defense against spells. Even if the slayer's magic resistance is overcomed or lowered he will still have good saves to protect him.
- Magical Defense is taken directly from PnP Occult Slayer, but I've limited it to arcane spells.
- Inner Focus is my take on Occult Slayer's Reflect Magic (too magical for my tastes) I opted for a sort of "Mettle+Evasion" and named it Inner Focus (as an AD&D HLA). The purpose of this sort of "Deflect Spell" is simple, it's an ability usable very few times and best reserved for the most dire situations when resisting the incoming spell(s) in that round can make a difference between life and death.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 30 December 2013 - 12:42 PM.


#2 Icendoan

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:43 AM

Barbarians may not actually need an enrage ability, while beserkers really do. They are too similar, and perhaps having a simple increase on APR (a small one) for the Barbarian with their light armour and faster movement would fit the class a little better.

I like the idea about the Stances, but having an offensive and defensive stance makes it very similar to the Blade.

Dual Wielding isn't just best for Kensai, it is best for everything. No matter which combat class, dual wielding offers an extra set of on-hit effects, on-wield effects and an inherent APR increase. You can't disallow dual wielding without removing two handed weapons as well, which is irritating.

For Kai, instead of having a very mundane and general combat increase, how about having a sort of combo attack; where each hit would stack and get better from the previous. (I would have it set a SPECIFIC for a duration, which could the be checked with Use Eff File, iirc.) You could also set APR to 2 or something for this as well, to stop having a 10hit/round uberattack.

We've had more than our fair share of WS Kit revisions, so that would be interesting.

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#3 Demivrgvs

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:11 AM

True Fighter

I like the idea about the Stances, but having an offensive and defensive stance makes it very similar to the Blade.

Yeah, though I have something a little different in mind than Blade's Spin abilities. A Defensive/Offensive Stance for example may simply allow the fighter to take a -x penalty to thac0 to obtain a +x bonus to AC/damage. Anyway, I'm just throwing in suggestions right now...

Barbarian

Barbarians may not actually need an enrage ability, while beserkers really do. They are too similar, and perhaps having a simple increase on APR (a small one) for the Barbarian with their light armour and faster movement would fit the class a little better.

I do like to avoid drastical changes like removing enrage ability from barbarians, but you somewhat anticipated my own suggestion for them, taken directly from Unearthed Arcana manual, Whirlwind Frenzy. In PnP it grants no constitution bonus and no increased saves vs. spell, but instead an increased apr and dodge ability. We may discuss how to implement it, but I do think this would be an interesting opportunity to make them more unique.

P.S I should add Barbarians to this topic, as thay actually are a fighter's kit.

Kensai

Dual Wielding isn't just best for Kensai, it is best for everything. No matter which combat class, dual wielding offers an extra set of on-hit effects, on-wield effects and an inherent APR increase. You can't disallow dual wielding without removing two handed weapons as well, which is irritating.

I don't want to disallow dual-wielding, I want to give an incentive to other underused styles, as I did within IR.

For Kai, instead of having a very mundane and general combat increase, how about having a sort of combo attack; where each hit would stack and get better from the previous. (I would have it set a SPECIFIC for a duration, which could the be checked with Use Eff File, iirc.) You could also set APR to 2 or something for this as well, to stop having a 10hit/round uberattack.

I don't think we can really set the apr to a value without having many effects still affect it afterwards.

Wizard Slayer

We've had more than our fair share of WS Kit revisions, so that would be interesting.

My own version is probably very different from any other for one noticeable thing. :rolleyes:

Edited by Demivrgvs, 09 May 2009 - 03:12 AM.


#4 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:34 AM

Kensais shouldn't be able to dual class. An honorable and devoted warrior turned into thief? A Sword Saint who spent his lifetime training to become one with his weapon who suddenly become an archmage?!

Well, there is already a none Kensai Sword Saints... although I do not dual class them that much, but I still like to have the option.

- best thac0 progression (+1/level)

With THAC0.2DA being like this:
2DA V1.0
0
		   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  ... 40
FIGHTER	20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1   0   -1  -2  -3  -4  -5  -6  -7  -8  -9  -10  ...   -19
That would be possible, but as that's not well balanced, in my opinion we would need to redo it a bit... My suggestion.
2DA V1.0
0
		   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26 27  28  29  30  31  32	... 50
FIGHTER	20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1  0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2	... -10

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 09 May 2009 - 03:43 AM.

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#5 yarpen

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 04:04 AM

About berserk enrage, from pnp sources:

The other benefit the Berserker receives is his Berserk. At any time, the Berserker may choose to Go Berserk. This isn't an instantaneous process, he must spend a little time to "psych himself up". It takes a full turn to Go Berserk.
In that time, the character is growling, moaning, uttering imprecations - it's impossible to be quiet when trying to Go Berserk. He may also be fighting during that time, meaning that he can start to Go Berserk on the round the fight begins, fight for ten full rounds, and then be Berserk on the eleventh round.

The Berserker can also Go Berserk before the fighting starts. At the end of a full turn of preparation he can become berserk instantaneously. If there's no enemy in sight yet, he can hold the Berserk until combat is engaged. But if no combat takes place within five more full turns, he automatically reverts to "normal" and suffers the ordinary consequences for coming out of Berserk. The character can come out of Berserk once the last enemy is down (he must literally be down on the ground, even if still alive and surrendering). The Berserker will stay berserk as long as there are enemies still on their feet.

For these reasons, Berserking is a more appropriate reaction when the characters are about to attack a foe they know about. If the characters are, instead, jumped by a small party of orcs, it's usually not worth the effort to Go Berserk; the consequences and effort outweigh the benefits. When Berserk, the character has phenomenal endurance and resistance to pain and some forms of magic. Only while Berserk, he gains the following benefits:

1. He is immune to the mage spells Charm Person, Friends, Hypnotism, Sleep, Irritation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scare, Geas, and the clerical spells Command, Charm Person or Mammal, Enthrall, Cloak of Bravery, and Symbol.

2. He gets a +4 to save against the wizard spells Blindness, Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Charm Monster, and Confusion, and the clerical spells Hold Person and Hold Animal.

3. The Emotion spell has no effect on the Berserker, unless the caster chose the Fear result. If Fear was chosen, the Berserker gets a normal Saving Throw; if he fails it, he is prematurely snapped out of his Berserk, with all the normal effects.
The Fear spell has the same effect. If he fails a save against Charm Monster, he simply counts the caster as one of his allies; he doesn't come out of the Berserk or obeys the caster's command.

4. Being Berserk offers no real protection from Finger of death, except that the spell effects do not take place until the character has come out of his Berserk. If the Berserker saves, he doesn't suffer the 2d8 + 1 damage until immediately after he snaps out of the Berserk. If he fails to save he doesn't die until he snaps out of Berserk.

5. The Berserker, while Berserk, is immune to KO results from the Punching and Wrestling rules, and takes only half damage from bare-handed attacks from these rules.

6. While Berserk, the character gets +1 to attack, +3 to hit and +5 HP.

Special Hindrances:

1. The Berserker character receives a -3 Reaction Adjustment from all NPCs (except from other Berserker tribes).

2. When the Berserker goes Berserk, the DM should immediately say to him "Tell me how many hit points you currently have." From that point on until the fight is done and the Berserker has returned to normal, the DM keeps track of his hit points. The player is not told how many HP he has left, nor how many points of damage he is taking with each attack. It is therefore very possible for a Berserker to be nickled and dimed to death and not know it until he drops dead.

3. While Berserk, the character can use no ranged weapons. He kills only in hand-to-hand or melee combat.

4. While Berserk, he must fight each opponent until that opponent is down. Once that enemy is down the Berserker must move to the nearest enemy to attack him. He can't, for instance, choose to attack the enemy leader if that leader is behind seven ranks of spearmen.

5. While Berserk, the character cannot cover against missile fire.

6. If, while the character is Berserk, another character tries something he can interpret as attack (for instance, hits him to move him out of the way of an incoming attack), the Berserker must roll 1d20 vs. his Intelligence. If he succeeds (rolls Int or less), he's dimly aware that his friend is not attacking him. If he fails, he thinks his friend is an enemy, and continues to think so until the fight is done and he is no longer Berserk.

7. While Berserk, the character is temporarily unaffected by the clerical spells Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Aid, Cure Serious Wounds, Heal, Regenerate (and Wither). He will gain the benefits of those spells only after he has come out of Berserk and suffered any and all damages which occurred then.

8. The Taunt spell is automatically successful, and will cause the Berserker to abandon his current enemy and rush to attack the taunter.

9. Finally, when the character comes out of Berserk, bad things happen to him. He loses the 5 HP he gained when he became Berserk (this could drop him to or below 0 HP and kill him). He collapses in exhaustion (exactly as if hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement, no save possible, for one round for every round he was Berserk. He suffers the effects of any spells which wait until he's returned to normal before affecting him and only then can healing magic affect him.


It's difficult to co-exist for Barbarian and Berserker. In vanilla BG2 Barbarian is more extreme edition of Berserker. Then, when we have both of these kits/classes - how to describe them? PnP true berserk is such an interesting thing - with immunity to heal, lack of control, immunity to so much spells. But with all of hindraces it became much weaker than (IMO overpowered) Barbarian.

Edited by yarpen, 09 May 2009 - 04:20 AM.


#6 Demivrgvs

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 06:33 AM

Fighter
Jarno, regarding thac0 progression table I'm not going to remove the cap at 0, because the so called "un-nerfed thac0 tables" are actually "overpowered tables" imo. With the thac0 capped at 0, fighters already hit everything they wish.

Even with vanilla's thac0 tables my tanks (without considering abilities such as Enrage, and without considering easily accessible buffs) usually have:
base 0
-4 from weapons (in vanilla you could even have +6 weapons!)
-3 from grandmastery
-1 from strength (I bet 90% of the times PC characters have better values here)
-1 from equipment (a few gauntlets could do that, Balduran's Helmet, ...)
Thus reaching a -10 thac0 shouldn't be difficult.

Very few creatures have AC values below -10 only, and only a handful have AC values near -15, even players should find difficult to have better values without item adding mods.

A base thac0 of -10 (which easily means about -20 when you consider all the bonuses from weapons, proficiency, strength, and buffs) is really overpowered when you consider that not even Ascension bosses have such low AC values.

I do like to allow both modders (for AI opponents) and players to create characters who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler), and thus I'd say that having a "far from perfect" fighter hit such uber-defensive characters 50% of the times with at least 3 attacks per round should be enough. Am I wrong?

P.S Kensais with unnerfed tables make no sense, easily reaching thac0 levels which way are lower the AC cap at -24/26

Barbarians vs. Berserkers

It's difficult to co-exist for Barbarian and Berserker. In vanilla BG2 Barbarian is more extreme edition of Berserker. Then, when we have both of these kits/classes - how to describe them? PnP true berserk is such an interesting thing - with immunity to heal, lack of control, immunity to so much spells. But with all of hindraces it became much weaker than (IMO overpowered) Barbarian.

The difference between the two classes is thin I know, we may consider barbarians more savage, quick and instinctive while berserkers are heavily trained, generally wear heavier armors and are weapon masters. We may implement it as Ice suggested by point up barbarians superior mobility, and differentiating the two Enrage abilities that currently are almost identical. I'll post the Barbarian class asap.

Regarding the PnP hindrances you've posted I think the solution I've proposed should be a good compromise between PnP and BG, isn't it?

#7 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 07:40 AM

I do like to allow both modders (for AI opponents) and players to create characters who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler), and thus I'd say that having a "far from perfect" fighter hit such uber-defensive characters 50% of the times with at least 3 attacks per round should be enough. Am I wrong?

How many "far from perfect fighters" are you going to meet that are on level 50? And you are forgetting that the table is build to last a bit more longer on higher levels? And that the player should have an incentive to try to reach that level 50, that truthfully can't with DefJam and BP-Balancer. As one could just do a level 20 fighter and then dual to a mage and get better Thac0 with TT.

who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler)

Yes, a thief in a full plate armor, shield and a wand of miracles in hand, right?

P.S Kensais with unnerfed tables make no sense, easily reaching thac0 levels which way are lower the AC cap at -24/26

I know, and part of the reason why the table needs to be changed for more commonplace Thac0 progress...
P.S. The Rangers and Paladins Thac0 table wouldn't be as fast and as low reaching as the Fighters, as they are part Priests and Druids(perhaps +1/3 level after the 15th)... but the Fighter/ multies would, as that would be the general rule.
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#8 yarpen

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:00 AM

My very own list of things to-do for Kensai and Berserker:
- Changing thaco/damage bonuses from Enrage from +2/+2 to +1/+3.
- You should remove protection from Imprisonent and draining levels from Enrage ability. Any protections which come with Enraged state should come from frenzied mind. But heh, what about reducing healing? I would love to see this rule of Enrage a bit changed:
* when enraged character is a target of healing spell, he have to fail saving throw vs. spells without mod.
- When using abilities like Kai or Enrage, characters (if hidden) are visible. As enraged character you shouldn't be able to hide enraged (character is howling like a wolf etc. - so no chance for being shady). You shouldn't also use quick items, spells, thief abilities etc. And there should be a chance for true berserk (lack of control).
- Kensai is very oriental stuff. In IWD2 dialogue.tlk I've found new versions of BG2 kits which were prepared for IWD2 in the times when it still was planned as AD&D game. And Bioware changed Kensai into

WEAPONS MASTER: a warrior that has been specially trained to be one with his or her weapon, weapons masters are often held in high regard: in Kara-Tur they are known as kensai - 'sword saints' - and are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. They are deadly and fast and are trained to fight without encumbrance, some considering armor the crutch of the martially unskilled.

Advantages:
* Bonus +1 attack bonus and Damage /3 levels.
* +2 armor bonus.
* -1 bonus to Speed Factor for every 4 levels.
* May use 'Focus' ability one time per day for every 4 levels: this ability lasts 10 seconds and makes all attacks do maximum damage.

Disadvantages:
* May not use missile weapons.
* May not wear armor.


Here you can check my list of all revised kits desc.
http://forums.gibber...mp;#entry146279

Barbarian
What do you think about making his rage progressive? starts with +1 to STR and CON then +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th, +4 at 9th +5 at 14th +6 at 18th ? Or just starts with +2, at 10th +4 and at 20th +6?

Edited by yarpen, 09 May 2009 - 09:06 AM.


#9 Icendoan

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:42 AM

Perhaps Kensai can have an APR bonus while wielding a two-handed or single weapon? As well as a speed factor bonus, hopefully.

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#10 Leomar

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 06:05 PM

Hey, nice. The discussion about the "Kit Revisions" started. :mwaha:

With an own "Item Revisions" forum and an own "Spell Revisons" forum, I hope you get soon your own "Kit Revisions" forum. Otherwise the "General Mod Discussion" is talking about Kits only in the future. :rolleyes:

Greetings Leomar

#11 Demivrgvs

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 12:21 AM

THAC0 Tables

I do like to allow both modders (for AI opponents) and players to create characters who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler), and thus I'd say that having a "far from perfect" fighter hit such uber-defensive characters 50% of the times with at least 3 attacks per round should be enough. Am I wrong?

How many "far from perfect fighters" are you going to meet that are on level 50? And you are forgetting that the table is build to last a bit more longer on higher levels? And that the player should have an incentive to try to reach that level 50, that truthfully can't with DefJam and BP-Balancer. As one could just do a level 20 fighter and then dual to a mage and get better Thac0 with TT.

First of all, I don't get what are you trying to say, because with "How many "far from perfect fighters" are you going to meet that are on level 50?" you're actually enforcing my opinion: high level fighters generally are better than the one I've described, who already doesn't need a supposedly "unnerfed thac0 table".

Secondly, sorry but I really don't want to give incentives to reach level 50, the original cap at 40 was already way too much for my tastes, and I do prefer to encourage to play full parties, which generally means reaching levels around the 30th.

Finally, regarding a level 20 fighter who duals to a mage... My mods clearly aren't inteded for powerplayers, and you really have to be one of them or at least an anti-roleplayer to the core to do such a thing. Not to mention it is utterly annoying because you'd actually play with a useless character for quite long in the later stages of the game. Tenser Transformation isn't going to let your F/M reach a better "base thac0" because as any other spell it is capped at 20th level, and with SR I also tweaked it (adding an appropriate apr value) to be more appealing for a plain mage rather than a F/M.

who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler)

Yes, a thief in a full plate armor, shield and a wand of miracles in hand, right?

:D Are you suggesting that a Swashbuckler can't reach extremely low AC values? I play with Refinements and thus the uber-stupid UAI is out of the equation, but still I can assure you my Swashbuckler would easily have an outstanding AC. Base AC 2 (without IR you could have even better), +7 as 30th level Swashbuckler (you can even reach +9), +5 from DEX, +3 from equipment (at the very least), ... to a total of -20 AC without considering a possible off-hand help.

The Rangers and Paladins Thac0 table wouldn't be as fast and as low reaching as the Fighters, as they are part Priests and Druids(perhaps +1/3 level after the 15th)... but the Fighter/ multies would, as that would be the general rule.

Paladins and Rangers always used the same thac0 progression of fighters, and I'm not going to change it, as I'd prefer to keep a low profile if possible. Drastical changes on well established rules tend to displease a lot of players, and they make the mod much more difficult to be accepted by a wider audience.

Berserker

My very own list of things to-do for Kensai and Berserker:
1) Changing thaco/damage bonuses from Enrage from +2/+2 to +1/+3.
2) You should remove protection from Imprisonent and draining levels from Enrage ability. Any protections which come with Enraged state should come from frenzied mind.
3) But heh, what about reducing healing? I would love to see this rule of Enrage a bit changed: when enraged character is a target of healing spell, he have to fail saving throw vs. spells without mod.
4) When using abilities like Kai or Enrage, characters (if hidden) are visible. As enraged character you shouldn't be able to hide enraged (character is howling like a wolf etc. - so no chance for being shady). You shouldn't also use quick items, spells, thief abilities etc.
5) And there should be a chance for true berserk (lack of control).

1) I'm fine with it, just like in PnP after all. :rolleyes:
2) I'd love to, and I didn't proposed it only because I fear angry players who prefer the uber-powerful BG rage. :p
3) I'm not sure it can be done, it would surely require an overwhelming amount of work, and I don't like the concept too much. :p
4) This is exactly what I was suggesting. :mwaha:
5) a sort of Frenzied Berserker would be cool imo, but drastically nerf the character isn't going to make the revised kit popular. :D Assigning Bersekers a minimal chance to enter a rage state automatically when hurt could be more appealing (because it's a sort of free rage), but it still appear as a too radical change imo.

Barbarian

What do you think about making his rage progressive? starts with +1 to STR and CON then +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th, +4 at 9th +5 at 14th +6 at 18th ? Or just starts with +2, at 10th +4 and at 20th +6?

I've thought about it, but dual/multi classes would handle it very badly, using their higher level class to determine the rage power.


Hey, nice. The discussion about the "Kit Revisions" started. ;)

With an own "Item Revisions" forum and an own "Spell Revisons" forum, I hope you get soon your own "Kit Revisions" forum. Otherwise the "General Mod Discussion" is talking about Kits only in the future. :D

Well, a few kits doesn't require much work (e.g. the ones we're talking about right now), but others like Beastmaster and probably Wizard Slayer require much more time. When I have a few kits ready for a mini-mod I'll ask for a dedicated forum, else I'll post them in either IR or SR forums. :D

Edited by Demivrgvs, 10 May 2009 - 12:25 AM.


#12 yarpen

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 02:55 AM

So... maybe Barbarian, who's rage is more powerfull - should have a chance to go berserk. Berserker is a warrior who sometimes show his "bad nature". Barbarian isn't trained - he's relying on his rage and speed. :rolleyes: So maybe?

Are you sure that barbarians should have dualclass possibilities?

Edited by yarpen, 10 May 2009 - 03:05 AM.


#13 Demivrgvs

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 03:28 AM

So... maybe Barbarian, who's rage is more powerfull - should have a chance to go berserk. Berserker is a warrior who sometimes show his "bad nature". Barbarian isn't trained - he's relying on his rage and speed. :rolleyes: So maybe?

Regarding Barbarian Rage being more powerful I think we're gonna change that, especially if we opt for replacing it with Whirlwind Frenzy. And on this matter I'd like to add that Barbarians too should be fatigued after a rage, don't they?

You do like the Frenzied Berserker concept eh? :mwaha: You should like IR's Crimson Chain then! ;) I'm still unsure how to implement it within a class without bothering many players though.

Are you sure that barbarians should have dualclass possibilities?

I suppose you are trying to say "are you sure that barbarians shouldn't have dualclass possibilities?", am I wrong? It was a vanilla hindrance, and frankly I'm not too biased on this matter. It partially makes sense, as I don't see a barbarian suddenly turning into a thief or a mage, but this probably is very subjective.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 10 May 2009 - 03:29 AM.


#14 yarpen

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 03:47 AM

Huh... from clearly mechanical point of view this hindrance was very fine - Barbarian combos can be very powerfull, rage + cleric spells etc. But as storyline, I've always had an idea of NPC human barbarian (4 lvl)/thief (7) who was one of these barbarians who long time ago wandered trough civilised terrains - thanks to his stupidness quickly became thug for hire and heavy drunker.
But I think that barbarian should stay as barbarian. :rolleyes:

I really hate this try of transplant 3e class into AD&D game. :/

#15 Demivrgvs

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 04:05 AM

Huh... from clearly mechanical point of view this hindrance was very fine - Barbarian combos can be very powerfull, rage + cleric spells etc. But as storyline, I've always had an idea of NPC human barbarian (4 lvl)/thief (7) who was one of these barbarians who long time ago wandered trough civilised terrains - thanks to his stupidness quickly became thug for hire and heavy drunker.
But I think that barbarian should stay as barbarian. :rolleyes:

Thus you'd keep the hindrance?

I really hate this try of transplant 3e class into AD&D game. :/

Which class are you talking about?



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