Kit Revisions (Fighters), Last Update 21/12/09 Options

[Demivrgvs]

When IR and SR will reach V3, they should be almost complete in terms of stability and contents, thus I'd like to start talking a little about the last project I have in mind since ages. The aim obviously is to revise kits/classes to make each of them as much interesting and balanced as possible. Last but not least, BG2 kits clearly didn't take into account BG1, and I'd like to "rectify" this too for BGT/TuTu players.

We'll start analysing the fighter classes, let me know your opinions and suggestions.

True Fighter
"The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king, all are fighters. Fighters can be stalwart defenders of those in need, cruel marauders, or gutsy adventurers. Some are among the land's best souls, willing to face death for the greater good. Others are among the worst, those who have no qualms about killing for private gain, or even for sport. Fighters who are not actively adventuring may be soldiers, guards, bodyguards, champions, or criminal enforcers. An adventuring fighter might call himself a warrior, a mercenary, a thug, or simply an adventurer.

Fighters can become skilled in the use of many types of weapons and armor, and learn a variety of fighting styles and field tactics, making them highly proficient in the ways of battle and extremely versatile.

Though fighters can be found in nearly every part of Faerun, those who are truly skilled are well-respected for their abilities. While many fighters operate on their own or as parts of informally organized groups, others hold themselves to a higher ideal and are part of knightly orders. These include such renowned groups as the Purple Dragons of Cormyr, the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin, and, in the past, the Champions Vigilant of Helm."

Class Features:
- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in any weapon proficiency. (IMPORTANT: with this revised table)
- Can use all types of armor.
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- At 7th level, the fighter gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.
- At 10th level, the fighter becomes proficient in the use of all types of weapons.
- At 19th level, the fighter becomes specialized in the use of all types of weapons.

Notes:
- the most important change is the Revised Grandmastery, as fighters will finally be a lot more skilled with weapons than other warriors. This is achieved by making Grandmastery much more powerful than before, and by removing some fighting skill to other warriors (paladins and rangers don't get +1/2 apr anymore, as such feature is moved from specialization to mastery).
- True Fighter was clearly underpowered and underused compared not only to other warriors, but also to its kits (Berserker was way better, and in most cases Kensai too, especially to dual) thus we should either add this class unique features not available to other kits, or add actual disadvantages to other kits (Berserker's disadvantage is nothing compared to its advantages).
- True Fighter (non kitted) should be the most versatile warrior and thus it will become proficient with any weapon at 10th level, and specialized at 19th.
- if possible I'd like to add them something else, and possibly at mid and high levels to make the single classed fighters a little more appealing. Something like the ability to fight in a more offensive/defensive stance.


Barbarian
"From the frozen lands of The North and the hellish jungles of Chult in the south come brave, even reckless, warriors. Civilized people call them barbarians or berserkers and suspect them of mayhem, impiety, and atrocities. While undoubtedly feral and unpredictable by the nature of their rages, barbarians are not necessarily uncultured brutes and have time and time again proven their cunning and resourcefulness as well as sheer physical power and endurance. Sometimes, in spite of their aversion to order, barbarians even demonstrate honor.

Where the fighter has training and discipline, the barbarian has a powerful rage, and once in this whirling frenzy, he becomes a true maelstrom of devastation, better able to defeat his foes and withstand their attacks. These rages leave him winded, and he only has the energy for a few such spectacular displays per day, but those few rages are usually sufficient.

Barbarians are common within several organizations within Faerun, such as the Uthgardt warriors of the Silver Marches and Icewind Dale, the primal warriors of the Reghed Glacier, the wild tribes of the Chondalwood, and the famous berserkers of Rashemen and its neighboring regions. Contrary to common belief, not all warriors who live outside civilization's borders are barbarians. Only those who embrace the wild and primal ways of the rage can rightly call themselves barbarian, imbuing them with a wild spirit not found amongst other warriors."

Advantages:
- Can use Barbarian Rage once per day per every 4 levels, starting with one use at level one.
When entering a Barbarian Rage, the character gains an extra half attack per round and a +1 bonus to their AC, movement rate, and saving throws versus breath, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. While enraged, the barbarian is immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities like charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, hold, and sleep. However, the barbarian will also be unable to perform actions that require concentration, like casting spells or using thieving skills.
After 10 rounds, the enrage effect wears off and the user becomes fatigued for 5 rounds. While fatigued, the barbarian suffers a -2 penalty to AC, damage, and attack rolls and cannot re-enter the enraged state.
- Is immune to backstabbing.
- Movement speed is increased by 20%.
- Rolls d12 for hit points.
- At 7th level, the barbarian gains a 5% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile damage. At 11th, 15th, and 19th level, this increases by an additional 5%.
- At 10th level, the benefits gained from enraging increase to an extra whole attack per round and a +2 bonus to AC, movement rate, and saving throws versus breath.
- At 18th level, the barbarian will no longer suffer from fatigue after enraging.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear plate mail or full plate armor.
- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.
- Cannot dual class.

Notes:
- vanilla's Barbarian Rage (+4 str and con, +2 saves vs. spell, -2 AC penalty) has been revised into a 2nd edition version of Whirling Frenzy (from Unearthed Arcana). This in the effort to make Barbarian and Berserker classes a little more different, having the former rely to fast and agile movements, the latter on pure strength and resistance. The Rages have also been slightly nerfed as they don't grant immunity from level drain and imprisonment anymore, break invisibility and prevent the user from doing almost anything which isn't fighting (cannot cast spells, turn undead, hide in shadow, use quick items, and so on).
- Barbarian too get fatigued after raging (only Berserkers did in vanilla)
- the 10% physical resistance at 11th level has been split into 5% at 7th and 5% at 11th.


Berserker
" Berserkers are warriors in tune with their animalistic side and, during combat, can achieve an ecstatic state of mind that will enable them to fight longer, harder and more savagely than any humanoid has a right to. Berserkers tend to be barbarian-like in nature, but not always. Sometimes it is a conscious choice that a warrior in training makes. Regardless, opponents on the battlefield will be unsettled when they see the savage elements of the berserker's personality.

This class is common amongst dwarves, known to them as 'Battleragers'. Members of this elite order are usually covered in scars, runes and tattoos, and scream out battle cries or religious oaths as they charge recklessly forward into battle. They live in the fringes of Dwarven society, kept away from children for their strange ways; heroic stories are told about them, but the Battlerager is short lived, having full belief that if they die, the Dwarven gods of battle will bring them back stronger than before.

Berserkers are never lawful. They may be honorable, but at heart they are wild. This wildness is their strength, and it could not live in a lawful soul. At best, chaotic berserkers are free and expressive. At worst, they are thoughtlessly destructive."


Advantages:
- Can Enrage once per day per every 4 levels, starting with one use at level one.
When enraging, the character gains 10 temporary hit points, a +2 bonus to damage, and a +1 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws versus death, but suffers a -2 penalty to AC. While enraged, the berserker is immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities like charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, hold, and sleep. However, the berserker will also be unable to perform actions that require concentration, like casting spells or using thieving skills.
After 10 rounds, the enrage effect wears off and the user becomes fatigued for 5 rounds. While fatigued, the berserker suffers a -2 penalty to AC, damage, and attack rolls and cannot re-enter the enraged state.
- At 10th level, the benefits gained from enraging increase to 20 temporary hit points, a +4 bonus to damage, and a +2 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws versus death.
- At 18th level, the berserker will no longer suffer from fatigue after enraging.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot use missile weapons.

Notes:
- See Barbarian's notes. Berserker Rage has been slightly revised.


Kensai
"Kensai is the original Kara-Turian name of what most people in Faerun would call, a Weapon Master. These fighters are trained in an ancient school of martial fighting which uses an esoteric force known as ki to increase the lethality in combat. A Weapon Master's goal is to unite his weapon with his body, and be able to use it without conscious effort as naturally as he would use any other limb. For such a fighter, the perfection of ki is found in the complete mastery of body, mind, weapon, and will.

When wielding their favored weapons Weapon Masters exhibit an uncanny amount of control and finesse, striking with more accuracy blows that are more lethal than those of any other warrior. They are deadly and fast, and are trained to fight without encumbrance, as they consider armor the crutch of the martially unskilled.

Weapons Masters are often held in high regard, especially in Kara-Tur, where they are known as Kensai - 'sword saints' - but are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. These warriors are devoted to refine their skills and their mind following strict and severe trainings, and are often incredibly disciplined as a result. Thus the path of the Weapon Master is not suited to characters of chaotic nature."

Advantages:
- Innate +2 bonus to AC
- Can use Kai ability once per day for every 3 levels.
With this ability the kensai focuses his Ki for a short time, allowing him to deal maximum damage on each hit for 2 rounds.
- At 1st level, gains +1 to hit and damage with any melee weapon, and an additional +1 every other 4 levels (up to +5 at 17th level)
- At 10th level, the kensai gains +1 bonus to AC vs. melee weapons. This bonus increases to +2 at 19th level.
- At 15th level, kensai's chances to score critical hits is augmented by 5%.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear armors, gauntlets, or helmets, nor use shields.
- Cannot use missile weapons.

Notes:
- Kensai can now use bracers to improve their AC.
- Kensai/Mage will not be able to wear mage robes anymore to reflect their necessity to avoid any encumberance.
- the progression of his thac0/damage bonus has been changed to make the class more appealing in BG1.
- the improved critical chance is extremely effective with Single Weapon Style and Two-Handed Weapon Style because those styles effectively double the % chance of scoring critical hits. It should also indirectly enhance the effectiveness of Kai, as a critical hit with maximum damage is quite lethal.


Wizard Slayer
"Magic is evil. Magic tempts. Magic corrupts. Wizard Slayers believe that mortals are too irresponsible to wield magic, and thus train their body and their mind to fight those foolish users. Wizard Slayers can take up any standard or philosophy, though they tend more toward chaos than law. Evil Wizard Slayers hunt down and kill the most powerful users of magic that they can find, as if to demonstrate the ultimate weakness of the wizard and the sorcerer. Good Wizard Slayers commit themselves to expunging evil sorcery from their world, but they too see themselves as examples of how mundane strength can conquer foul enchantments.

Wizard Slayers are excellent fighter, but they generally sacrifice extensive martial trainings preferring to dedicate themselves to anti-magic skills. These warriors become innately resistant to magic, and develop abilities which allow them to withstand, hamper, and slain any spellcaster who dares to cross their path.

Though Wizard Slayers are well aware of the dangers of magic and won't succumb to its siren call of power, some eventually learn to tolerate their companions' magic. A few claim that they are leading by example; others rationalize that only by consorting with lesser villains they can defeat greater ones; only a handful accept that in the right hands magic can even be used to good ends."

Advantages:
- For each successful hit (melee or ranged) on an opponent, 10% cumulative spell failure penalty is applied.
- Can use Detect Illusions once per day per every 4 levels, starting with one use at level one.
- At 7th level, the wizard slayer gains a 5% resistance to magic. At 11th, 15th, and 19th level, this increases by an additional 5%.
- ...

Disadvantages:
- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.
- Cannot use shields
- Cannot dual to mage classes

Notes:
- quoting Mike I could say that "I don't really like the idea of being restricted from items that are magical. It seems like a fairly dumb philosophy to me which would require that characters who are wizard slayers are either stupid or ignorant. Since most other WS adjusting mods keep this feature of the class, I think it would be nice to go in a different direction"
- should the "Disrupt Spellcasting" ability be a once/day ability with a higher effectiveness (e.g. 50% non-cumulative spell failure).
- magic resistance is now gained similarly to Barbarian's physical one. Note that KR's wizard slayers can now use items to increase this innate ability
- Detect Illusions is a must-have for this class imo, without it any decent mage can use illusions like invisibility and laugh while the WS have to stand there like an idiot
- we have discussed various additional features (e.g. a spell turning-like ability), but before thinking to add more things I would have to find additional disadvantages to justify such advantages

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: Jan 18 2010, 04:21 AM

[Icendoan]

Barbarians may not actually need an enrage ability, while beserkers really do. They are too similar, and perhaps having a simple increase on APR (a small one) for the Barbarian with their light armour and faster movement would fit the class a little better.

I like the idea about the Stances, but having an offensive and defensive stance makes it very similar to the Blade.

Dual Wielding isn't just best for Kensai, it is best for everything. No matter which combat class, dual wielding offers an extra set of on-hit effects, on-wield effects and an inherent APR increase. You can't disallow dual wielding without removing two handed weapons as well, which is irritating.

For Kai, instead of having a very mundane and general combat increase, how about having a sort of combo attack; where each hit would stack and get better from the previous. (I would have it set a SPECIFIC for a duration, which could the be checked with Use Eff File, iirc.) You could also set APR to 2 or something for this as well, to stop having a 10hit/round uberattack.

We've had more than our fair share of WS Kit revisions, so that would be interesting.

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

True Fighter

I like the idea about the Stances, but having an offensive and defensive stance makes it very similar to the Blade.

Yeah, though I have something a little different in mind than Blade's Spin abilities. A Defensive/Offensive Stance for example may simply allow the fighter to take a -x penalty to thac0 to obtain a +x bonus to AC/damage. Anyway, I'm just throwing in suggestions right now...

Barbarian

Barbarians may not actually need an enrage ability, while beserkers really do. They are too similar, and perhaps having a simple increase on APR (a small one) for the Barbarian with their light armour and faster movement would fit the class a little better.

I do like to avoid drastical changes like removing enrage ability from barbarians, but you somewhat anticipated my own suggestion for them, taken directly from Unearthed Arcana manual, Whirlwind Frenzy. In PnP it grants no constitution bonus and no increased saves vs. spell, but instead an increased apr and dodge ability. We may discuss how to implement it, but I do think this would be an interesting opportunity to make them more unique.

P.S I should add Barbarians to this topic, as thay actually are a fighter's kit.

Kensai

Dual Wielding isn't just best for Kensai, it is best for everything. No matter which combat class, dual wielding offers an extra set of on-hit effects, on-wield effects and an inherent APR increase. You can't disallow dual wielding without removing two handed weapons as well, which is irritating.

I don't want to disallow dual-wielding, I want to give an incentive to other underused styles, as I did within IR.

For Kai, instead of having a very mundane and general combat increase, how about having a sort of combo attack; where each hit would stack and get better from the previous. (I would have it set a SPECIFIC for a duration, which could the be checked with Use Eff File, iirc.) You could also set APR to 2 or something for this as well, to stop having a 10hit/round uberattack.

I don't think we can really set the apr to a value without having many effects still affect it afterwards.

Wizard Slayer

We've had more than our fair share of WS Kit revisions, so that would be interesting.

My own version is probably very different from any other for one noticeable thing.

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: May 9 2009, 03:12 AM

[Jarno Mikkola]

Kensais shouldn't be able to dual class. An honorable and devoted warrior turned into thief? A Sword Saint who spent his lifetime training to become one with his weapon who suddenly become an archmage?!

Well, there is already a none Kensai Sword Saints... although I do not dual class them that much, but I still like to have the option.

- best thac0 progression (+1/level)

With THAC0.2DA being like this:

CODE

2DA V1.0
0
           1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  ... 40
FIGHTER    20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1   0   -1  -2  -3  -4  -5  -6  -7  -8  -9  -10  ...   -19

That would be possible, but as that's not well balanced, in my opinion we would need to redo it a bit... My suggestion.

CODE

2DA V1.0
0
           1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26 27  28  29  30  31  32    ... 50
FIGHTER    20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1  0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2    ... -10

This post has been edited by Jarno Mikkola: May 9 2009, 03:43 AM

[yarpen]

About berserk enrage, from pnp sources:

The other benefit the Berserker receives is his Berserk. At any time, the Berserker may choose to Go Berserk. This isn't an instantaneous process, he must spend a little time to "psych himself up". It takes a full turn to Go Berserk.
In that time, the character is growling, moaning, uttering imprecations - it's impossible to be quiet when trying to Go Berserk. He may also be fighting during that time, meaning that he can start to Go Berserk on the round the fight begins, fight for ten full rounds, and then be Berserk on the eleventh round.

The Berserker can also Go Berserk before the fighting starts. At the end of a full turn of preparation he can become berserk instantaneously. If there's no enemy in sight yet, he can hold the Berserk until combat is engaged. But if no combat takes place within five more full turns, he automatically reverts to "normal" and suffers the ordinary consequences for coming out of Berserk. The character can come out of Berserk once the last enemy is down (he must literally be down on the ground, even if still alive and surrendering). The Berserker will stay berserk as long as there are enemies still on their feet.

For these reasons, Berserking is a more appropriate reaction when the characters are about to attack a foe they know about. If the characters are, instead, jumped by a small party of orcs, it's usually not worth the effort to Go Berserk; the consequences and effort outweigh the benefits. When Berserk, the character has phenomenal endurance and resistance to pain and some forms of magic. Only while Berserk, he gains the following benefits:

1. He is immune to the mage spells Charm Person, Friends, Hypnotism, Sleep, Irritation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scare, Geas, and the clerical spells Command, Charm Person or Mammal, Enthrall, Cloak of Bravery, and Symbol.

2. He gets a +4 to save against the wizard spells Blindness, Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Charm Monster, and Confusion, and the clerical spells Hold Person and Hold Animal.

3. The Emotion spell has no effect on the Berserker, unless the caster chose the Fear result. If Fear was chosen, the Berserker gets a normal Saving Throw; if he fails it, he is prematurely snapped out of his Berserk, with all the normal effects.
The Fear spell has the same effect. If he fails a save against Charm Monster, he simply counts the caster as one of his allies; he doesn't come out of the Berserk or obeys the caster's command.

4. Being Berserk offers no real protection from Finger of death, except that the spell effects do not take place until the character has come out of his Berserk. If the Berserker saves, he doesn't suffer the 2d8 + 1 damage until immediately after he snaps out of the Berserk. If he fails to save he doesn't die until he snaps out of Berserk.

5. The Berserker, while Berserk, is immune to KO results from the Punching and Wrestling rules, and takes only half damage from bare-handed attacks from these rules.

6. While Berserk, the character gets +1 to attack, +3 to hit and +5 HP.

Special Hindrances:

1. The Berserker character receives a -3 Reaction Adjustment from all NPCs (except from other Berserker tribes).

2. When the Berserker goes Berserk, the DM should immediately say to him "Tell me how many hit points you currently have." From that point on until the fight is done and the Berserker has returned to normal, the DM keeps track of his hit points. The player is not told how many HP he has left, nor how many points of damage he is taking with each attack. It is therefore very possible for a Berserker to be nickled and dimed to death and not know it until he drops dead.

3. While Berserk, the character can use no ranged weapons. He kills only in hand-to-hand or melee combat.

4. While Berserk, he must fight each opponent until that opponent is down. Once that enemy is down the Berserker must move to the nearest enemy to attack him. He can't, for instance, choose to attack the enemy leader if that leader is behind seven ranks of spearmen.

5. While Berserk, the character cannot cover against missile fire.

6. If, while the character is Berserk, another character tries something he can interpret as attack (for instance, hits him to move him out of the way of an incoming attack), the Berserker must roll 1d20 vs. his Intelligence. If he succeeds (rolls Int or less), he's dimly aware that his friend is not attacking him. If he fails, he thinks his friend is an enemy, and continues to think so until the fight is done and he is no longer Berserk.

7. While Berserk, the character is temporarily unaffected by the clerical spells Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Aid, Cure Serious Wounds, Heal, Regenerate (and Wither). He will gain the benefits of those spells only after he has come out of Berserk and suffered any and all damages which occurred then.

8. The Taunt spell is automatically successful, and will cause the Berserker to abandon his current enemy and rush to attack the taunter.

9. Finally, when the character comes out of Berserk, bad things happen to him. He loses the 5 HP he gained when he became Berserk (this could drop him to or below 0 HP and kill him). He collapses in exhaustion (exactly as if hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement, no save possible, for one round for every round he was Berserk. He suffers the effects of any spells which wait until he's returned to normal before affecting him and only then can healing magic affect him.

It's difficult to co-exist for Barbarian and Berserker. In vanilla BG2 Barbarian is more extreme edition of Berserker. Then, when we have both of these kits/classes - how to describe them? PnP true berserk is such an interesting thing - with immunity to heal, lack of control, immunity to so much spells. But with all of hindraces it became much weaker than (IMO overpowered) Barbarian.




This post has been edited by yarpen: May 9 2009, 04:20 AM

[Demivrgvs]

Fighter
Jarno, regarding thac0 progression table I'm not going to remove the cap at 0, because the so called "un-nerfed thac0 tables" are actually "overpowered tables" imo. With the thac0 capped at 0, fighters already hit everything they wish.

Even with vanilla's thac0 tables my tanks (without considering abilities such as Enrage, and without considering easily accessible buffs) usually have:
base 0
-4 from weapons (in vanilla you could even have +6 weapons!)
-3 from grandmastery
-1 from strength (I bet 90% of the times PC characters have better values here)
-1 from equipment (a few gauntlets could do that, Balduran's Helmet, ...)
Thus reaching a -10 thac0 shouldn't be difficult.

Very few creatures have AC values below -10 only, and only a handful have AC values near -15, even players should find difficult to have better values without item adding mods.

A base thac0 of -10 (which easily means about -20 when you consider all the bonuses from weapons, proficiency, strength, and buffs) is really overpowered when you consider that not even Ascension bosses have such low AC values.

I do like to allow both modders (for AI opponents) and players to create characters who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler), and thus I'd say that having a "far from perfect" fighter hit such uber-defensive characters 50% of the times with at least 3 attacks per round should be enough. Am I wrong?

P.S Kensais with unnerfed tables make no sense, easily reaching thac0 levels which way are lower the AC cap at -24/26

Barbarians vs. Berserkers

It's difficult to co-exist for Barbarian and Berserker. In vanilla BG2 Barbarian is more extreme edition of Berserker. Then, when we have both of these kits/classes - how to describe them? PnP true berserk is such an interesting thing - with immunity to heal, lack of control, immunity to so much spells. But with all of hindraces it became much weaker than (IMO overpowered) Barbarian.

The difference between the two classes is thin I know, we may consider barbarians more savage, quick and instinctive while berserkers are heavily trained, generally wear heavier armors and are weapon masters. We may implement it as Ice suggested by point up barbarians superior mobility, and differentiating the two Enrage abilities that currently are almost identical. I'll post the Barbarian class asap.

Regarding the PnP hindrances you've posted I think the solution I've proposed should be a good compromise between PnP and BG, isn't it?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I do like to allow both modders (for AI opponents) and players to create characters who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler), and thus I'd say that having a "far from perfect" fighter hit such uber-defensive characters 50% of the times with at least 3 attacks per round should be enough. Am I wrong?

How many "far from perfect fighters" are you going to meet that are on level 50? And you are forgetting that the table is build to last a bit more longer on higher levels? And that the player should have an incentive to try to reach that level 50, that truthfully can't with DefJam and BP-Balancer. As one could just do a level 20 fighter and then dual to a mage and get better Thac0 with TT.

who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler)

Yes, a thief in a full plate armor, shield and a wand of miracles in hand, right?

P.S Kensais with unnerfed tables make no sense, easily reaching thac0 levels which way are lower the AC cap at -24/26

I know, and part of the reason why the table needs to be changed for more commonplace Thac0 progress...
P.S. The Rangers and Paladins Thac0 table wouldn't be as fast and as low reaching as the Fighters, as they are part Priests and Druids(perhaps +1/3 level after the 15th)... but the Fighter/ multies would, as that would be the general rule.

[yarpen]

My very own list of things to-do for Kensai and Berserker:
- Changing thaco/damage bonuses from Enrage from +2/+2 to +1/+3.
- You should remove protection from Imprisonent and draining levels from Enrage ability. Any protections which come with Enraged state should come from frenzied mind. But heh, what about reducing healing? I would love to see this rule of Enrage a bit changed:
* when enraged character is a target of healing spell, he have to fail saving throw vs. spells without mod.
- When using abilities like Kai or Enrage, characters (if hidden) are visible. As enraged character you shouldn't be able to hide enraged (character is howling like a wolf etc. - so no chance for being shady). You shouldn't also use quick items, spells, thief abilities etc. And there should be a chance for true berserk (lack of control).
- Kensai is very oriental stuff. In IWD2 dialogue.tlk I've found new versions of BG2 kits which were prepared for IWD2 in the times when it still was planned as AD&D game. And Bioware changed Kensai into

WEAPONS MASTER: a warrior that has been specially trained to be one with his or her weapon, weapons masters are often held in high regard: in Kara-Tur they are known as kensai - 'sword saints' - and are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. They are deadly and fast and are trained to fight without encumbrance, some considering armor the crutch of the martially unskilled.

Advantages:
* Bonus +1 attack bonus and Damage /3 levels.
* +2 armor bonus.
* -1 bonus to Speed Factor for every 4 levels.
* May use 'Focus' ability one time per day for every 4 levels: this ability lasts 10 seconds and makes all attacks do maximum damage.

Disadvantages:
* May not use missile weapons.
* May not wear armor.

Here you can check my list of all revised kits desc.
http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry146279

Barbarian
What do you think about making his rage progressive? starts with +1 to STR and CON then +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th, +4 at 9th +5 at 14th +6 at 18th ? Or just starts with +2, at 10th +4 and at 20th +6?

This post has been edited by yarpen: May 9 2009, 09:06 AM

[Icendoan]

Perhaps Kensai can have an APR bonus while wielding a two-handed or single weapon? As well as a speed factor bonus, hopefully.

Icen

[Leomar]

Hey, nice. The discussion about the "Kit Revisions" started.

With an own "Item Revisions" forum and an own "Spell Revisons" forum, I hope you get soon your own "Kit Revisions" forum. Otherwise the "General Mod Discussion" is talking about Kits only in the future.

Greetings Leomar

[Demivrgvs]

THAC0 Tables

I do like to allow both modders (for AI opponents) and players to create characters who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler), and thus I'd say that having a "far from perfect" fighter hit such uber-defensive characters 50% of the times with at least 3 attacks per round should be enough. Am I wrong?

How many "far from perfect fighters" are you going to meet that are on level 50? And you are forgetting that the table is build to last a bit more longer on higher levels? And that the player should have an incentive to try to reach that level 50, that truthfully can't with DefJam and BP-Balancer. As one could just do a level 20 fighter and then dual to a mage and get better Thac0 with TT.

First of all, I don't get what are you trying to say, because with "How many "far from perfect fighters" are you going to meet that are on level 50?" you're actually enforcing my opinion: high level fighters generally are better than the one I've described, who already doesn't need a supposedly "unnerfed thac0 table".

Secondly, sorry but I really don't want to give incentives to reach level 50, the original cap at 40 was already way too much for my tastes, and I do prefer to encourage to play full parties, which generally means reaching levels around the 30th.

Finally, regarding a level 20 fighter who duals to a mage... My mods clearly aren't inteded for powerplayers, and you really have to be one of them or at least an anti-roleplayer to the core to do such a thing. Not to mention it is utterly annoying because you'd actually play with a useless character for quite long in the later stages of the game. Tenser Transformation isn't going to let your F/M reach a better "base thac0" because as any other spell it is capped at 20th level, and with SR I also tweaked it (adding an appropriate apr value) to be more appealing for a plain mage rather than a F/M.

who rely on extremely low AC (e.g. Swashbuckler)

Yes, a thief in a full plate armor, shield and a wand of miracles in hand, right?

Are you suggesting that a Swashbuckler can't reach extremely low AC values? I play with Refinements and thus the uber-stupid UAI is out of the equation, but still I can assure you my Swashbuckler would easily have an outstanding AC. Base AC 2 (without IR you could have even better), +7 as 30th level Swashbuckler (you can even reach +9), +5 from DEX, +3 from equipment (at the very least), ... to a total of -20 AC without considering a possible off-hand help.

The Rangers and Paladins Thac0 table wouldn't be as fast and as low reaching as the Fighters, as they are part Priests and Druids(perhaps +1/3 level after the 15th)... but the Fighter/ multies would, as that would be the general rule.

Paladins and Rangers always used the same thac0 progression of fighters, and I'm not going to change it, as I'd prefer to keep a low profile if possible. Drastical changes on well established rules tend to displease a lot of players, and they make the mod much more difficult to be accepted by a wider audience.

Berserker

My very own list of things to-do for Kensai and Berserker:
1) Changing thaco/damage bonuses from Enrage from +2/+2 to +1/+3.
2) You should remove protection from Imprisonent and draining levels from Enrage ability. Any protections which come with Enraged state should come from frenzied mind.
3) But heh, what about reducing healing? I would love to see this rule of Enrage a bit changed: when enraged character is a target of healing spell, he have to fail saving throw vs. spells without mod.
4) When using abilities like Kai or Enrage, characters (if hidden) are visible. As enraged character you shouldn't be able to hide enraged (character is howling like a wolf etc. - so no chance for being shady). You shouldn't also use quick items, spells, thief abilities etc.
5) And there should be a chance for true berserk (lack of control).

1) I'm fine with it, just like in PnP after all.
2) I'd love to, and I didn't proposed it only because I fear angry players who prefer the uber-powerful BG rage.
3) I'm not sure it can be done, it would surely require an overwhelming amount of work, and I don't like the concept too much.
4) This is exactly what I was suggesting.
5) a sort of Frenzied Berserker would be cool imo, but drastically nerf the character isn't going to make the revised kit popular. Assigning Bersekers a minimal chance to enter a rage state automatically when hurt could be more appealing (because it's a sort of free rage), but it still appear as a too radical change imo.

Barbarian

What do you think about making his rage progressive? starts with +1 to STR and CON then +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th, +4 at 9th +5 at 14th +6 at 18th ? Or just starts with +2, at 10th +4 and at 20th +6?

I've thought about it, but dual/multi classes would handle it very badly, using their higher level class to determine the rage power.

Hey, nice. The discussion about the "Kit Revisions" started.

With an own "Item Revisions" forum and an own "Spell Revisons" forum, I hope you get soon your own "Kit Revisions" forum. Otherwise the "General Mod Discussion" is talking about Kits only in the future.

Well, a few kits doesn't require much work (e.g. the ones we're talking about right now), but others like Beastmaster and probably Wizard Slayer require much more time. When I have a few kits ready for a mini-mod I'll ask for a dedicated forum, else I'll post them in either IR or SR forums.

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: May 10 2009, 12:25 AM

[yarpen]

So... maybe Barbarian, who's rage is more powerfull - should have a chance to go berserk. Berserker is a warrior who sometimes show his "bad nature". Barbarian isn't trained - he's relying on his rage and speed. So maybe?

Are you sure that barbarians should have dualclass possibilities?

This post has been edited by yarpen: May 10 2009, 03:05 AM

[Demivrgvs]

So... maybe Barbarian, who's rage is more powerfull - should have a chance to go berserk. Berserker is a warrior who sometimes show his "bad nature". Barbarian isn't trained - he's relying on his rage and speed. So maybe?

Regarding Barbarian Rage being more powerful I think we're gonna change that, especially if we opt for replacing it with Whirlwind Frenzy. And on this matter I'd like to add that Barbarians too should be fatigued after a rage, don't they?

You do like the Frenzied Berserker concept eh? You should like IR's Crimson Chain then! I'm still unsure how to implement it within a class without bothering many players though.

Are you sure that barbarians should have dualclass possibilities?

I suppose you are trying to say "are you sure that barbarians shouldn't have dualclass possibilities?", am I wrong? It was a vanilla hindrance, and frankly I'm not too biased on this matter. It partially makes sense, as I don't see a barbarian suddenly turning into a thief or a mage, but this probably is very subjective.

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: May 10 2009, 03:29 AM

[yarpen]

Huh... from clearly mechanical point of view this hindrance was very fine - Barbarian combos can be very powerfull, rage + cleric spells etc. But as storyline, I've always had an idea of NPC human barbarian (4 lvl)/thief (7) who was one of these barbarians who long time ago wandered trough civilised terrains - thanks to his stupidness quickly became thug for hire and heavy drunker.
But I think that barbarian should stay as barbarian.

I really hate this try of transplant 3e class into AD&D game. :/

[Demivrgvs]

Huh... from clearly mechanical point of view this hindrance was very fine - Barbarian combos can be very powerfull, rage + cleric spells etc. But as storyline, I've always had an idea of NPC human barbarian (4 lvl)/thief (7) who was one of these barbarians who long time ago wandered trough civilised terrains - thanks to his stupidness quickly became thug for hire and heavy drunker.
But I think that barbarian should stay as barbarian.

Thus you'd keep the hindrance?

I really hate this try of transplant 3e class into AD&D game. :/

Which class are you talking about?