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#736 Aranthys

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 06:14 AM

Summarizing what I wanted to suggest,

3rd lvl Haste:
* +1 apr, AC, THAC0, and speed factor (the latter would be a new entry)
* if possible something like +50% movement rate instead of th current +100%
* last 10 rounds
* whole party, but 5 rounds fatigue after it (note that SR's fatigue also affect spellcaster's casting speed factor)

6th lvl Improved Haste:
* +2 apr (finally affecting non-warriors), AC, THAC0, and speed factor
* +100% movement rate
* last up to 20 rounds
* single target, but no fatigue after it


Good suggestions, but here's how I think these spells should more-or-less be :

3rd level haste :

Effect : +1 APR / +50% movement / 5 rounds fatigue after the spell ends.
Duration : 1 round / level up to 20 rounds (Why set the duration to 10 rounds ?)
Affects : Whole party

Basically, same as Vanilla except the fact that speed is only improved by 50% / fatigue uses your (much better) system.

In advanced D&D, haste doesn't grant AC/THACO bonus, but doubles attacks / speed and ages the recipient of the spell

Haste: [...] When this spell is cast, each affected creature functions at double its normal movement and attack rates. A hasted creature gains a -2 initiative bonus. Thus, a creature moving at 6 and attacking once per round would move at 12 and attack twice per round. Spellcasting and spell effects are not sped up. The number of creatures that can be affected is equal to the caster's experience level; those creatures closest to the center of effect are affected first. All affected by haste must be in the designated area of effect. Note that this spell negates the effects of a slow spell. Additionally, this spell ages the recipient by one year, because of sped-up metabolic processes. This spell is not cumulative with itself or with other similar magic. Its material component is a shaving of licorice root. [2E CD-ROM PHB]

Instead of aging the character, your version (and the one chosen by the developpers) fatigues at the end of the spell.

Since the drawback is not as huge, the benefit is much lower, and only grants +1 APR : original version sounded fair... the +1 THACO / +1 AC comes from DnD 3.5, and doesn't really belong here... the spell is powerful enough without that bonus.

Regarding Improved Haste, this is a completely made up spell, so, I'd instead turn it into the following :

6th lvl Improved Haste:

Effect : +2 apr / +100% movement rate / -1 Spell Casting Time
Duration : 1 round / level up to 20 rounds
Affects : Single target

Single target haste, more powerful and more versatile (adds a nifty bonus for spell casters, and the same APR for all classes, better for non-fighter classes).

Granting additional APR & speed is more than enough power for that spell, I really don't understand the reasoning for boosting these spells even more by granting THACO and AC, beside having the spell look more "D&D 3.5-like", which is not what your mod is trying to achieve (?)

These spells were already "bread & butter" of Baldur's Gate I & II before even boosting them. It's like granting bonus to other very powerful spells, like PFMW or Time Stop, or Improved Alacrity & so on..

Another thing that you could do would be to rename the spell into "Alacrity" rather than Improved Haste, and have it grant the same bonus as Improved Alacrity, but for the duration of 1 round, which would make it balanced, I guess ?

Edit.: Forgot PnP haste also grants -2 bonus to initiative, might want to add it if you want to stay true to PnP, but it's not like initiative is *that* important in baldur's gate (?)

Edited by Aranthys, 26 January 2012 - 06:24 AM.


#737 Demivrgvs

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:08 AM

Haste

... the +1 THACO / +1 AC comes from DnD 3.5, and doesn't really belong here... the spell is powerful enough without that bonus.

Those bonuses aren't there because I'm a 3.5 fan, they are there because I do think Haste should be specular to Slow. If Slow lowers target's speed, apr, AC, to hit chances, and so on, then Haste should do the opposite (in fact, each of these spell is supposed to cancel the other).

Improved Haste

Granting additional APR & speed is more than enough power for that spell, I really don't understand the reasoning for boosting these spells even more by granting THACO and AC, beside having the spell look more "D&D 3.5-like", which is not what your mod is trying to achieve (?)

These spells were already "bread & butter" of Baldur's Gate I & II before even boosting them. It's like granting bonus to other very powerful spells, like PFMW or Time Stop, or Improved Alacrity & so on..

Who told about boosting IH? If anything my suggested changes are a slight nerf (increasing its "minimum effectiveness" but drastically lowering its maximum potential).

-1 Spell Casting Time

I'm really against this for both conceptual and balance reasons. Actually I'll surely check that rumor about haste/slow opcodes affecting casting speed because that would be hugely unwelcome!

Another thing that you could do would be to rename the spell into "Alacrity" rather than Improved Haste, and have it grant the same bonus as Improved Alacrity, but for the duration of 1 round, which would make it balanced, I guess ?

This would turn an already very powerful spell into an absolute monster (with your suggested casting speed bonus it would be even worse!). This is madness!! No, this is Spartaaaa! :D

#738 Salk

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 05:55 AM

I find myself in agreement with Demivrgvs.

I just wish he could be back to full modding power! :)

#739 Aranthys

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:17 PM

HasteThose bonuses aren't there because I'm a 3.5 fan, they are there because I do think Haste should be specular to Slow. If Slow lowers target's speed, apr, AC, to hit chances, and so on, then Haste should do the opposite (in fact, each of these spell is supposed to cancel the other).

Well, I guess let's agree to disagree, I don't think effect should mirror each other, since they didn't in PnP, neither did they in vanilla.

Improved Haste ]Who told about boosting IH? If anything my suggested changes are a slight nerf (increasing its "minimum effectiveness" but drastically lowering its maximum potential).

+2 THACO / +2 AC is a significant buff, whereas limiting the APR bonus to +2 is not that much of a nerf, except for dual wielding fighters.
2H / Sword & Board fighters are left pretty much in the same state, except that they get +2 thaco / +2AC.
Other characters do get +1APR, so it's a welcome bonus if you plan on meleeing with a Cleric or a Rogue (But, well, can't say it's what these classes excel at: Rogues are better left backstabbing, and Clerics can already get the same APR as fighter classes by using divine power)

I'm really against this for both conceptual and balance reasons. Actually I'll surely check that rumor about haste/slow opcodes affecting casting speed because that would be hugely unwelcome!

Sure, I was just giving another way to make Improved Haste usefull to other classes than just melee characters.

This would turn an already very powerful spell into an absolute monster (with your suggested casting speed bonus it would be even worse!). This is madness!! No, this is Spartaaaa! :D

I meant, having the spell ONLY give the alacrity effect for 1 round and nothing else.
While powerful indeed when combined with "-casting speed" items (which there are two IG), having the spell only last 1 round makes it quite less powerfull than it's level 9 counterpart.
You could also easily balance it by setting the spellcasting speed bonus to 0 (negating item bonuses) and having the spell require a full round to cast.

That also was just a suggestion : There are TONs of buffs to help increase melee characters, whereas there are very few spells that increase spellcaster effectiveness before getting access to improved alacrity, that is, well, basically overkill with spellcasting speed bonuses (At 3m exp)
Just trying to provide other way to improve/change the spell rather than just a basic "improved haste" that does what a level 3 spell does, but slightly better.

Trying to think out of the box, that's all :)

Edited by Aranthys, 27 January 2012 - 01:23 PM.


#740 polytope

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

Those bonuses aren't there because I'm a 3.5 fan, they are there because I do think Haste should be specular to Slow. If Slow lowers target's speed, apr, AC, to hit chances, and so on, then Haste should do the opposite (in fact, each of these spell is supposed to cancel the other).


I think that whilst moving at half your normal speed will definitely make you easier to hit, and less likely to be able to hit others, moving at twice your normal speed will not necessarily do the opposite: Avoiding an attack requires that you see it coming, and there's no reason to believe Haste increases your "processing speed". A flat THAC0 bonus also implies an improved ability to either aim or penetrate armor, which Haste shouldn't really provide - even though it might be harder to parry or avoid a hasted attack, such rules as parrying and the distinction between "dodge" AC and actual armor were not implemented.

Actually I'll surely check that rumor about haste/slow opcodes affecting casting speed because that would be hugely unwelcome!


Slow definitely doubles spell casting speed, but Haste doesn't improve it (except by negating Slow). I think this feature is reasonable, as it makes Slow useful against casters, and is justifiable if you believe that the minimum casting time of a spell is dependent on external factors (the Weave or somesuch...).

I find Improved Haste to be useful for non-warriors as is, 10 apr with Melf's meteors (or 6 with darts of stunning) is pretty impressive, also, adding to - rather than doubling - a character's apr favours 2-hand weapon users disproportionately over those using 2-weapon styles (IR's 2-handed weapons are already much more damaging) and wouldn't set stat #155 (IMPROVEDHASTE), which I believe is checked by aVENGER's AI in a few places, probably SCSII as well.

PnP haste also grants -2 bonus to initiative, might want to add it if you want to stay true to PnP, but it's not like initiative is *that* important in baldur's gate


I believe it's already implemented by the opcode, if two character's wielding weapons with the same positive speed facor, one hasted and one not, attack each other the hasted one gets first strike - I'm not sure that it's a -2 bonus however, I have the feeling Haste actually halves SF.

Edited by polytope, 27 January 2012 - 06:42 PM.

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#741 Topos

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

Re: Undead immunity to ADHW - enemy mages don't know about this change, and hence waste their ADHWs on my skeleton warriors. I take it that this is a bug? I'm disabling this change for my next game, but I would like to see it addressed (alternatively, it could be nonstandard behavior, particular to my install - have other players seen this happen?).

#742 polytope

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:56 PM

Re: Undead immunity to ADHW - enemy mages don't know about this change, and hence waste their ADHWs on my skeleton warriors. I take it that this is a bug? I'm disabling this change for my next game, but I would like to see it addressed (alternatively, it could be nonstandard behavior, particular to my install - have other players seen this happen?).


Are you using any improved AI scripts? In the vanilla game mages will waste spells like confusion/domination on summoned undead anyway. Really, mages shouldn't be using any resistable spell on a 95% magic resistant skeleton warrior (which is why I think Sunfire should be left as bypassing MR).
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#743 Topos

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:36 PM

Are you using any improved AI scripts? In the vanilla game mages will waste spells like confusion/domination on summoned undead anyway. Really, mages shouldn't be using any resistable spell on a 95% magic resistant skeleton warrior (which is why I think Sunfire should be left as bypassing MR).


I'm running SCS II. Actually, I recall now that these were "greater skeleton warriors" that I was sending into combat, not the magic resistant kind. The SCS II AI is probably intelligent enough to not waste spells on the MR skeleton warriors, so in practice this problem may not be such a big deal.

#744 Pixies

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:12 AM

Mechanics-related question for Demivrgvs: In your revised version of flame arrow, how do you get the arrows to target random enemies? I've looked at the spells involved (spwi303.spl - spwi303e.spl) and think I understand the mechanic (cast chain where each spell will cast a new spell that eventually casts a flame arrow, depending on caster level); but whenever I try to emulate it, all projectiles always go toward the same target. Am I overlooking something? Thankful for some clearing up. :)

#745 Ardanis

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:02 AM

Have a look at the projectile, it has AOE but only targets a single enemy.
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#746 Pixies

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:55 AM

Ah indeed, that seems to have done the trick - thanks a lot.

#747 Dakk

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:33 AM

Non-damaging spells flagged as hostile
I seem to recall we discussed this somewhere, and even sort of reached a consensus that spells that doesn't really do damage shouldn't make innocents go hostile. "Yes my dear peasant, I apologize for the Web I cast when assassins jumped me in the street, but it could have been a Fireball..."

My case in point is actually Entangle. During BG1 promised to help save Prism against the bountyhunter Greywolf, the latter then proceeded to tear my only realy meleecharacter (CHARNAME) to shreds. My ranged-heavy party moved out a bit and then Jaheira cast Entangle. Seconds before it hit CHARNAME ran like a rabbit, and successfully distanced herself from Greywolf. The ranged attackers then made short work of the baddie. I was totally proud of my tactical acumen.. until I realized that Prism - whose life I just saved - was hostile as he got caught in the Entangle. Reload. :(

It didn't make much sense really, and I think there should be room to be "rewarding" against PC's who go out of their way to not harm innocents by using "non-lethal" spells. I like to think of it as defending yourself with tear-gas and sandbag-shotguns instead of nerve-gas and machine-guns where's a chance for innocents getting caught in the crossfire.

Edited by Dakk, 27 September 2012 - 07:40 AM.


#748 Demivrgvs

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:02 AM

Non-damaging spells flagged as hostile

I seem to recall we discussed this somewhere, and even sort of reached a consensus that spells that doesn't really do damage shouldn't make innocents go hostile.

Yes, we discussed it, and yes I think the consensus was to make non-damaging spells not cause neutral characters to become hostile. The obvious drawback is that players can potentially exploit it (e.g. by casting tons of Web spell on a soon to be hostile target when he's still neutral), but I think good scripts can handle it, and it still probably is the lesser of the two evils.

I may even do it before v4 for a small hotfix/update on v3.1 if I find some time for it (it shouldn't take much, but I have tons of things to do between IR, KR and non-BG matters), but I cannot promise it.

#749 Dakk

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:55 AM

Non-damaging spells flagged as hostile

I seem to recall we discussed this somewhere, and even sort of reached a consensus that spells that doesn't really do damage shouldn't make innocents go hostile.

Yes, we discussed it, and yes I think the consensus was to make non-damaging spells not cause neutral characters to become hostile. The obvious drawback is that players can potentially exploit it (e.g. by casting tons of Web spell on a soon to be hostile target when he's still neutral), but I think good scripts can handle it, and it still probably is the lesser of the two evils.

Great! Yes that's how I remember it. The benefits of the change is also for everyone while the drawback will only ever be a problem for metagamers (and thereby not much of a problem at all IMHO). What I don't remember is we discussing what spells should be flagged as non-hostile; there's not many to choose from I believe? Web, Entangle.. any Glyphs? And most important of all - will [Un]Holy Blights be considered hostile against unaffected innocents?

I may even do it before v4 for a small hotfix/update on v3.1 if I find some time for it (it shouldn't take much, but I have tons of things to do between IR, KR and non-BG matters), but I cannot promise it.

Don't sweat it man, there's no rush for this :)

#750 DrAzTiK

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:42 AM

it seems Aid spell doesn't assign an icon protrait. I think you could use the IWD2 one.



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