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#31 Demivrgvs

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 08:46 AM

Spell shield

Not sure if you know, but it's the only spell that will lets your party have a good chance of winning a battle against Elder Orbs if you have Swoard Coast Stratagems installed.
Does the new one also protect againts the behodler anti-magic ray ?
But that's mostly due to the fact SCS beholders are cheesy with their antimagic ray.

I know, but you should also know that the only reason Spell Shield is so effective against beholders is because it's bugged!

That being said, the problem imo is that BG version of beholder's anti-magic ray is extremely overpowered. It has all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of its PnP version (beholder can't use all of their frontal rays as long as the anti-magic one is used). I already discussed this with DavidW and I'll see if I can implement an optional component or a mini-mod to nerf the ray without creating issues with SCSII AI.

Saving throws penality

Another thing that concerns me is that the penality to saving throws to level 8+ save-or-else spells becomes really quite harsh. -6 to saving throws means that any character at level 15 has a 50% chance to be affected by the full effect. Even someone with a saving throw of 1 has a 33% chance to be affected.
If you add Greater Malision to the business, level 20+ character have a 50% chance to be affected.

Have you tried it in-game? Because I do feared the same but the feedback provided by players actually convinced me that even those harsh penalties aren't a problem. This is something for which a lot of feedback would be welcomed.

Regarding Greater Malison it has been nerfed to cause -2 penalty as per PnP, IWD and BG1; instead of the overpowered -4. I'll post a topic on this matter because I fear many players don't understand how powerful this spell was in its BG2 version.

Spellstrike

The last spell that concerns me is spellstrike. While in a vanilla game, its mostly useless, in a SCS game the spell really gets usefull due to the amount of protections that enemy wizard usen and it buys you a lot of time make your enemies affected by breach (To remove protection from magical weapons).
You made it the ultimate debuffing spell, making other protections removal spells not worth it once you've access to it, and making it so that any enemy spell caster affected by it dead the round that follows.

When playing with SCS, It's already one of the few spells I'd memorize early (With time stop and improved alacrity) since the most dangerous foes are spell casters.

Are you referring to its latests version? Because in V2.9 the Breach-like ability has been removed exactly because the fear of it being too powerful.

Anyway vanilla's version of this spell was really too weak for a 9th level spell and something had to be done. My latest suggestion was to add a Remove Magic-like feature (which I think was present in PnP).

#32 phordicus

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:56 PM

please consider making all of these abjuration & metamagic related changes optional or a separate component. making infravision into a semi-useful spell is one thing; totally revamping magical combat is completely another.
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#33 Demivrgvs

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 11:30 PM

please consider making all of these abjuration & metamagic related changes optional or a separate component. making infravision into a semi-useful spell is one thing; totally revamping magical combat is completely another.

What do you mean with "all of these abjuration & metamagic related changes"? I've reverted many changes (the one I regret the most is Spell Immunity, as I hate vanilla's stacking Spell Immunity :( ), and the ones I can think of still present in V3 are very few:
- Spell Shield: it was irreparably bugged, and both RR and SCS scripts don't use it because of this
- Pierce Shield: now has a breach-like effect (absolutely needed because liches and rakshasas are immune to Breach)
- Spell Strike: as of V2.9 it doesn't have the breach-like effect anymore

If your concern is the small aoe applied to some antimagic spells it's something I had to do because of SCS AI. Actually, most of the changes to the whole spell protection and antimac attacks system is done with SCS AI in mind.

#34 Salk

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 12:38 AM

I hate vanilla's stacking Spell Immunity :D .


A real obscenity! :(

For me, the stacking of this spell would be a reason to eliminate it altogether from the game.

#35 DarkWon

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:42 AM

This isn't really feedback its a question, but I am having some issues as a multiclass F/M. In the first round of any fight all my 10-12 pre-buffs always get remove magic'd...I just can't compare with their caster level 18 or 20. Is there spell of 6th level or lower that can protect against this?? I tried Spell Immunity: Abjuration and it does nothing which really annoyed me...I mean what is the point of the spell?! to protect against stoneskin and armor spells?

Even one round with my buffs would be better than now where I have a sign on my head saying "kill me"

#36 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:17 AM

This isn't really feedback its a question, but I am having some issues as a multiclass F/M. In the first round of any fight all my 10-12 pre-buffs always get remove magic'd...I just can't compare with their caster level 18 or 20. Is there spell of 6th level or lower that can protect against this?

Remove magic is 3rd level spell so Minor Globe of Invulnerability(4th level spell) works wonders against it. Unless you have a modified Remove magic casted on you.
Yes... I am probably still editing the post above.
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#37 Aranthys

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:49 AM

This isn't really feedback its a question, but I am having some issues as a multiclass F/M. In the first round of any fight all my 10-12 pre-buffs always get remove magic'd...I just can't compare with their caster level 18 or 20. Is there spell of 6th level or lower that can protect against this?

Remove magic is 3rd level spell so Minor Globe of Invulnerability(4th level spell) works wonders against it. Unless you have a modified Remove magic casted on you.

Oh boy
I never thought about using minor globe of invulnerability against remove magic :(

#38 Demivrgvs

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 01:42 PM

Dispel, Minor Globe of Invulnerability & Spell Immunity

This isn't really feedback its a question, but I am having some issues as a multiclass F/M. In the first round of any fight all my 10-12 pre-buffs always get remove magic'd...I just can't compare with their caster level 18 or 20. Is there spell of 6th level or lower that can protect against this?

Remove magic is 3rd level spell so Minor Globe of Invulnerability(4th level spell) works wonders against it. Unless you have a modified Remove magic casted on you.

Oh boy
I never thought about using minor globe of invulnerability against remove magic :D

Well, probably because you can't. :( Dispel/Remove Magic is not considered a 3rd level spell, its level is set to 0, which allows it to bypass liches/rakshasas immunities as well as any Globe of Invulnerability. I never changed this "feature" if you're asking, it has always been there.

SI: Abj should protect against Dispel though! I did a terrible error making it belong to Universal school in some old version of SR, but it should really be an Abjuration spell by now, at least in V2.9 (even without the hotfixes).

P.S Just so you know, having a lower caster level is one of the very few disadvantages of a F/M over a pure mage, thus even if I don't like how easily a uber-high level opponent can dispel any protection, I do find natural that a F/M can get his/her buffs dispelled more easily.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 10 June 2009 - 01:54 PM.


#39 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 02:32 PM

Dispel, Minor Globe of Invulnerability & Spell Immunity

Oh boy, I never thought about using minor globe of invulnerability against remove magic :(

Well, probably because you can't. :D Dispel/Remove Magic is not considered a 3rd level spell, its level is set to 10, which allows it to bypass liches/rakshasas immunities as well as any Globe of Invulnerability. I never changed this "feature" if you're asking, it has always been there.

Posted Image (that's how the binary math works)
Hmm, don't you think it should be fixed? Question cause you were once thinking of this... After all, the enemy mages are going to always be levels higher than the Players...

Unless you have a modified Remove magic

As in, the description says what it actually does.

Hmm after a rethink- are you sure it wasn't this?

aTweaks v2.5
~SETUP-ATWEAKS.TP2~ Install Component 103 [Allow Dispel/Remove Magic to take down Globes of Invulnerability]?

So it wasn't you... but.

Re-re-thinking. So originally, the GoI is not dispel-able, so it should prevent the dispel/remove spell spells dispel tries entirely! :D This is what you get at 5am. Re-Edit, ...but it doesn't, so the whole idea of the spell is totally fracked... Nice! ;)

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 11 June 2009 - 03:46 AM.

Yes... I am probably still editing the post above.
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#40 Shaitan

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:30 PM

Hello!

I just saw nIGHTMARE announcing for testers to Arcane Remix, and I also saw this:

Optional components:

- Stricter school exclusions (most specialists are restricted from two schools, rather than only one)
- 8th & 9th level scrolls unusable by bards
- Scrolls require higher intelligence (two versions: less than spells, and same as spells)


Could this by any chance
a) be implemented at all?
b) If so in a future SR release, as I hope SR v3 is closing in :(

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#41 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 01:18 PM

Could this by any chance
a) be implemented at all?
b) If so in a future SR release, as I hope SR v3 is closing in :(

a) Yes.
b) Well, Demivrgvs would only need to borrow NiGHTMARE's code to do it. But first, the code needs to be tested, first without the SR and then with SR, and then publish. So on you go, test puppet, go talk to NIGHTMARE...
Yes... I am probably still editing the post above.
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#42 Demivrgvs

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:05 PM

Hello!

I just saw nIGHTMARE announcing for testers to Arcane Remix, and I also saw this:

Optional components:

1) Stricter school exclusions (most specialists are restricted from two schools, rather than only one)
2) 8th & 9th level scrolls unusable by bards
3) Scrolls require higher intelligence (two versions: less than spells, and same as spells)


Could this by any chance
a) be implemented at all?
b) If so in a future SR release, as I hope SR v3 is closing in :(

a) yes, especially if most players agree
b) it wouldn't take me too much time to implement them, but we haven't discussed them at all and generally SR changes are discussed with players instead of "imposed". Anyway, unless I wake up tomorrow realizing this is a must-have I think it will have to wait as V3 is indeed closing in and I still have some things to do/decide even without adding these! :D

Let's dicuss this briefly anyway:

1) I'd leave something like this to Kit Revisions. I may agree on it but it would require a wider revision of the class imo, else I suppose most players wouldn't like it at all. Furthermore, I'm not even sure this can be fully achieved as you can't assign more than one "exclusion flag" at a spell. You can flag scrolls to work this way, but on character creation you'd still be able to select spells which belong the secondary opposition school (NIGHTMARE can prove me wrong though).

2) this is extremely easy to do, but I'm not too sure about it for a simple reason: Use Any Item. I do hate this HLA when used by thieves (especially when exploited by kensai/thieves), but it's quite appropriate for bards, and would make this change minimal.

3) I like this, and it would be again a rather simple thing to do.

P.S I don't feel much hurry to do these things as Arcane Remix would probably be compatible with SR.

#43 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:16 PM

This is the code I wrote for stricter school exclusions. IIRC it's actually modified code from Divine Remix:

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi218.spl~  ~override~ // Ghoul Touch
			  ~spwi313.spl~  ~override~ // Skull Trap
			  ~spwi414.spl~  ~override~ // Spirit Armor
  WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 28608 // Necromancers only
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi118.spl~  ~override~ // Chromatic Orb
			  ~spwi325.spl~  ~override~ // Melf's Minute Meteors
			  ~spwi403.spl~  ~override~ // Fire Shield (Blue)
			  ~spwi418.spl~  ~override~ // Fire Shield (Red)
  WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 4800 // Alteration, Evocation; exclude Abjurers, Conjurers, Enchanters, and Necromancers
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi514.spl~  ~override~ // Lower Resistance
			  ~spwi903.spl~  ~override~ // Spellstrike
  WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 5120 // Exclude Illusionists and Necromancers
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi722.spl~  ~override~ // Limited Wish
			  ~spwi919.spl~  ~override~ // Wish
  WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 2944 // Exclude Conjurers, Diviners, Enchanters, and Invokers
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP ~^SPWI[1-9].+\.spl$~ ~override~
  READ_SHORT 0x1e "exclusion_school"
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 64) THEN BEGIN  // Alteration; exclude Abjurers
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 4160 // Exclude Abjurers and Necromancers
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 256) THEN BEGIN // Conjuration/Summoning; exclude Diviners
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 2304 // Exclude Diviners and Invokers
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 512) THEN BEGIN // Invocation/Evocation; exclude Enchanters
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 640 // Exclude Conjurers and Enchanters
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 1024) THEN BEGIN // Necromancy; exclude Illusionists
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 1536 // Exclude Enchanters and Illusionists
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 2048) THEN BEGIN // Enchantment/Charm; exclude Invokers
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 6144 // Exclude Invokers and Necromancers
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 4096) THEN BEGIN // Illusion/Phantasm; exclude Necromancers
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 6208 // Exclude Abjurerers, Invokers and Necromancers
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%exclusion_school%" = 8192) THEN BEGIN // Abjuration; exclude Transmuters
	WRITE_SHORT 0x1e 9216 // Exclude Illusionists and Transmuters
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

Some of that ties in with changes to spell schools made by the main AR component.

There's also some related code for scroll changes, and a whole mass of related code for creature changes.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 11 June 2009 - 02:17 PM.


#44 yarpen

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:09 AM

I don't think that these mods gonna be compatible. Arcane Remixes changes many spells, and is I think more extreme - so there are changes which make problems with SCS. As far as I remember, reading from DevWiki but it was long time ago. Maybe I'm not an author, but in place of Nightmare, I'd think about something. Arcane Remixes aren't going to be developed more, so maybe that's good idea to connect them with great Spell Revision project? Maybe not all of the changes, but there were really great spells and I'd love to see them with Spell Revision which reibalances spell system really fine. :( I know that's hard and needs a lot of discussion between Demi and NightMARE, but I hope that this discussion will give to us, players, a lot of good stuff. :D

Pesonally I'd love to see this union, also because NightMARE mods as Divine Remixes were my favourites when it's about game mechanics - and now I also love Demi's Revision mods. ;-)

Edited by yarpen, 12 June 2009 - 12:11 AM.


#45 Shaitan

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:16 AM

I don't think that these mods gonna be compatible.


I was thinking that myself - at least not conceptually. Before SR came out I used to use Divine Remix also, but that don't seems to get updated anymore. Kudos to NiGHTMARE and the other authors for doing DR and Arcane Remix.

Perhaps Demi will look closer at these mods in the future - perhaps just to get inspired?

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