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Familiars (Workroom)


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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 09:02 AM

I'll make it very simple for now. Let's discuss each familiar and each and every ability we'd like them to have. Feel free to throw in whatever you want, even referring to how familiars should grow in power between levels.


Lantern Archon

Statistics:
STR 3, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 10; AL Lawful Good
Hit Points 6 (+2 every level up to 44)
AC 8 (+1 every 2 levels up to -2)
Base THAC0 16 (+1 every 2 levels up to 6)
Saving Throws (use cleric table?)

Combat Abilities:
1 Ranged Attack Per Round (range: 20 feet)
1d6 magic damage (Ray of Light)

at 6th level: attacks become +1 enchanted, attacks gain the Searing Light effect (target must save vs. spell at +2 or be blinded for 1 round)
at 12th level: attacks become +2 enchanted, +1/2 attack per round
at 18th level: attacks become +3 enchanted, +1/2 attack per round

Special Qualities:
Aura of Menace (at will): opponents within 20 feet must save vs. spell at +2 or be affected by a Doom spell
Immune to normal weapons (at 18th level)
Immune to charm & petrification effects
Electrical Resistance 100%
Magic Resistance 1% (+1% every level up to 20%)

Known Spells when fully developed (6/4/3/3/2):
1° Cure Light Wounds x4, Resist Fear, Sanctuary
2° Aid x3, Slow Poison
3° Cure Disease, Remove Paralysis, Holy Smite
4° Protection from Evil in 10' radius x3
5° True Seeing x2


Pseudo Dragon

Statistics:
STR 9, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 10; AL Neutral Good
Hit Points 8 (+3 every level up to 65)
AC 4 (+1 every 2 levels up to -6)
Base THAC0 18 (+1 every level up to -2)
Saving Throws (use fighter table?)

Combat Abilities:
2 Attacks Per Round
1d4 piercing damage (Sting & Bite)

at 6th level: attacks become +1 enchanted, attacks gain a "Poison" effect (target must save vs. poison at +2 or fall unconscious for 5 rounds)
at 12th level: attacks become +2 enchanted, +1/2 attack per round
at 18th level: attacks become +3 enchanted, +1/2 attack per round

Special Qualities:
Blindsense: see invisible creatures (what about making it immune to blindness and backstabs at higher levels?)
Chameleon Power: become invisible in forest-like environements
Immune to charm, hold & sleep effects (and spells that shouldn't affect flying creatures like grease and entangle)
Magic Resistance 15% (+2% every level up to 55%)


Faerie Dragon

Statistics:
STR 3, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 17, WIS 10, CHA 12; AL Chaotic Good
Hit Points 6 (+2 every level up to 44)
AC 8 (+1 every 2 levels up to -2)
Base THAC0 19 (+1 every 2 levels up to 6)
Saving Throws (use cleric table?)

Combat Abilities:
In PnP it has an almost useless 1d2 bite attack and a ranged breath attack which deals no damage but causes a confusion-like effect, how should we handle this creature combat abilities? For the breath attack a simple ranged attack with Euphoria effect (target must save vs. spell at +2 or be confused for x rounds) may work...

at 6th level: attacks become +1 enchanted, ...
at 12th level: attacks become +2 enchanted, ...
at 18th level: attacks become +3 enchanted, ...

Special Qualities:
Natural Invisibility (a la Invisible Stalker, it should probably be gained at higher levels)
Immune to charm & confusion effects
Magic Resistance 1% (+1% every level up to 20%)

Known Spells when fully developed:
- PnP sources don't specify which spells the creature uses, we only know that Faerie Dragons use either wizards spells or druids ones. We may even use a mix of them...

Edited by Demivrgvs, 09 March 2009 - 03:27 AM.


#2 yarpen

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 12:06 PM

- Searing Light effect at such a high level? Could be available at 12th.
- Aura of Menace is too powerfull. Maybe -1 to Thac0 and saves instead of Doom's -2?
- spell selection: don'tcha think that basing on 'sun' domain could be more appropriate than cleric spells only? Sunschorch, Sunfire - there's lack of them. And True seeing doesn't seem such a good choice.

But whoah, love to see Familiar Revision completed. :p

EDIT:
I think familiars should be immune to mass instant-kill effects as this from Death Spell. :p

Edited by yarpen, 03 March 2009 - 12:11 PM.


#3 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 12:24 PM

I think familiars should be immune to mass instant-kill effects as this from Death Spell.

I believe that they are, or is their gender 'summon'?
And what comes to the spells, these are very good choices. -ever heard of 'the light of truth'...True Seeing.
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#4 Demivrgvs

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 04:19 PM

- Searing Light effect at such a high level? Could be available at 12th.

Yeah, I thought it too, I just put in all the suggestions I had about the creature.

- Aura of Menace is too powerfull. Maybe -1 to Thac0 and saves instead of Doom's -2?

We can make the save scalable to nerf it (e.g. save at +2 bonus at low levels). Anyway, I suggested to use Doom instead of making it a completely unrelated effect to nerf it somewhat, making it not stackable with Doom itself. :p

- spell selection: don'tcha think that basing on 'sun' domain could be more appropriate than cleric spells only? Sunschorch, Sunfire - there's lack of them. And True seeing doesn't seem such a good choice.

I like your suggestion, but it actually involves granting it spells which belongs to three different classes. This reminds me that I'm still uncertain about assigning familiars real classes. Perhaps using innate abilities without following a standard class is better?

Regarding True Seeing itself I agree with what Jarno says, and unless we opt for not making this creature a true cleric it's the 5th level spell which better fits this creature imo.

I think familiars should be immune to mass instant-kill effects as this from Death Spell. :D

Indeed they are.

I'll take some time to leave players comment this familiar before posting the Pseudo Dragon. :p

#5 Salk

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 12:33 AM

If we move Searing Light to level 12, then we would need something better at level 18 because otherwise it'd be anticlimactic.

I like the way Aura of Menace is presented so I'd keep it as it is.

I still don't like much the idea of giving Familiars real classes: better make up our own customized spell selection that fits best the specific creature.

#6 yarpen

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 05:27 AM

What'cha think about Searing Light slight revision:
- Searing light blinds enemy for 1 round. Starts at 8th with +4 save bonus, at 12th there's +2 save bonus. At 18th there's no bonus.
- There's no save for undead creatures. :p So our lantern can be a great weapon against undead. Hm?

#7 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 07:30 AM

I still don't like much the idea of giving Familiars real classes: better make up our own customized spell selection that fits best the specific creature.

Yeah, the more I think about them the more I agree with you on this matter.

What'cha think about Searing Light slight revision:
- Searing light blinds enemy for 1 round. Starts at 8th with +4 save bonus, at 12th there's +2 save bonus. At 18th there's no bonus.
- There's no save for undead creatures. :p So our lantern can be a great weapon against undead. Hm?

Yeah, that could work, and I too thought about an eventual increased effectiveness against undead creatures. Indeed we can do a lot of things with this spell and all the different familiars, I hope I can handle such a large task.

I'll add the Pseudo Dragon asap. I'll try to keep all familiars descriptions as updated as possible, but considering how many things are still not written in stone it may take a while.

#8 Guest_Dirty Uncle Bertie_*

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 08:23 AM

Demivrgvs, I think this is one of those things that'll be done when it's done. For the sake of your sanity, I wouldn't bother setting any dates for when you think this'll actually be completed.

I think the way you're approaching this (i.e. posting details here for us all to discuss) is the best way, and we'll hopefully end up with something that pleases everyone (except maybe Salk).

#9 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 08:30 AM

I still don't like much the idea of giving Familiars real classes: better make up our own customized spell selection that fits best the specific creature.

Yeah, the more I think about them the more I agree with you on this matter.

Yeah, but let's remember that the 'class' is just a pseudo class, as spells are innate spells, the hit points&thac0&AC etc. tables are different... but we need this pseudo class as we do not wish the familiar to die from the first slap by a vampire or from the 100th, but something in the middle. Right?
And if the Imp is going to be -lemented to have different than some (6/4/3/3/2) spell table to have more fireballs, it's easy to do. :p
And no, they don't have to be all casters.

Now, I have to question, what will the Cespenars upgrade do with the familiars? Nothing? A summoning stone?

I'll try to keep all familiars descriptions as updated as possible, but considering how many things are still not written in stone it may take a while.

You'll put the all into a pinned thread after you have finished working on them. In about 6 months into the future. :p
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#10 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 08:55 AM

Pseudo Dragon added.

I think the way you're approaching this (i.e. posting details here for us all to discuss) is the best way, and we'll hopefully end up with something that pleases everyone (except maybe Salk).

I'll post every small detail I can think of, and yes, players feedback is essential imo to handle so many creatures with so many possible abilities. I do hope to please Salk too considering he was the first one to ask for this component!

I still don't like much the idea of giving Familiars real classes: better make up our own customized spell selection that fits best the specific creature.

Yeah, the more I think about them the more I agree with you on this matter.

Yeah, but let's remember that the 'class' is just a pseudo class, as spells are innate spells, the hit points&thac0&AC etc. tables are different...

Actually I was using the real classes with their respective tables, and the original .spl files, but I now think that using "custom" innates (pratically just copies of the original spells but flagged as innates) is probably a better solution.

I'm also starting to think about having familiars level up at each level (in terms of hit points, thaco, magic resistance), while leaving some unique "upgrade" at selected levels (e.g. new abilities and upgraded "weapons").

Now, I have to question, what will the Cespenars upgrade do with the familiars? Nothing? A summoning stone?

:p What do you mean by that?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 04 March 2009 - 08:56 AM.


#11 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 10:47 AM

Now, I have to question, what will the Cespenars upgrade do with the familiars? Nothing? A summoning stone?

:D What do you mean by that?

Well, I probably remember it totally off, but you get improved familiar in the ToB portion of the BGII game, and it's done somehow... :p

Yeah, but let's remember that the 'class' is just a pseudo class, as spells are innate spells, the hit points&thac0&AC etc. tables are different...

Actually I was using the real classes with their respective tables, and the original .spl files, but I now think that using "custom" innates (pratically just copies of the original spells but flagged as innates) is probably a better solution.

Yes it is, as one can choose from which ever class wished. And they probably need to be casted at set spell level as innates, or is the little Imp going to flat out the Realms with the 10d10 fireballs, when it's caster levels up to 21? :p

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 04 March 2009 - 11:04 AM.

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#12 Salk

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 12:00 PM

I'm also starting to think about having familiars level up at each level (in terms of hit points, thaco, magic resistance), while leaving some unique "upgrade" at selected levels (e.g. new abilities and upgraded "weapons").


I would like that, if it's not too much of a problem.

#13 Guest_Yarpus_anonymous_*

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 01:59 AM

Anonymous_Yarpen: I know that I'm always complaining, and worst of that in total no-gramma english (bwah, I hate writing in english) but got a wall-breaking idea for pseudo-dragon changes. Bwah, stop complaining, start writing boy. :D

So, I don't know, if there's original PnP pseudo dragon: but for me it's a sort oversized lizard with wings, which imitates true dragon. So maybe, for making it more different from Fairy Dragon, we can make Pseudo-guy look as true imitation of true dragons? :) Changes...
* instead of sleep-poison effect which I think should be reserved for Fairy Dragon: a sort of minor fire breath (using animation of Burning Hands spell). Always wanted to have one smokish guy on arm, who can burn my math teacher :p
* instead of large immunity to magic - lesser one + some immunity to elemental (or just a fire) damage.
* most stupid but... don't know how to call this ability. Our little draco starts using his wings harder and harder to blow away all cloud-like stuff. :p

I know that these sort of changes destroy your great work at pseudo dragon, but some suggestions maybe are interesting. Dunno. :D

#14 Demivrgvs

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 02:39 AM

Well, your suggested changes would make the Pseudodragon too different from its PnP version (which does exists), as both its poison-sleep attack and its incredible magic resistance are well established features in PnP. If you're worrying about Pseudodragon being too similar to the Faerie Dragon rest assure they are quite different as the latter has a confusing breath attack, improved invisibility a wizard-like abilities, while the former is a more straight-forward melee creature.

Regarding your suggestions:
- small fire breath attack would be cool imo...but I'm not sure if it fits the creature as it's not a small fire dragon
- again, granting resistance to an element would imply making him more like a true dragon rather than a pseudodragon
- a small wing buffet may be interesting, but being the pseudodragon a tiny creature it seems to me a little too much allowing it to clear entire areas from cloud attacks


P.S DavidW, if you haven't added this feature I do think Dragons should be immune to clouds considering a simple wing buffet should wipe them out (were they already immune? :p ).

#15 DavidW

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 04:19 AM

P.S DavidW, if you haven't added this feature I do think Dragons should be immune to clouds considering a simple wing buffet should wipe them out (were they already immune? :p ).


Interesting... atm wing buffet clears clouds but I guess it doesn't prevent them from failing a save in the first place.



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