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#16 Demivrgvs

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:22 AM

I've added the Faerie Dragon, which actually needs a lot of discussion and inputs.

I've slightly reworked the level up system, making common "upgrade" take place every lvl up. This allows to have a more scalable grow (especially for what concern hit points) and a slightly wider range of liberty (e.g. Pseudodragon should have a better thac0 progression compared to mage-like familiars).

#17 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:31 AM

P.S DavidW, if you haven't added this feature I do think Dragons should be immune to clouds considering a simple wing buffet should wipe them out (were they already immune? :p ).

NEVER DO SUCH A THING!
They shouldn't be immune, as in many books etc. I have read, the dragons, especially the greens (in Krynn) fight vs. other dragons, and they always use their breath weapons, with is a poison cloud... and the dragons take damage from it, yes, the dragons might have wing buffets but it needs to be used, and if the dragon is distracted it can't be the master of the winds all the time even though it has wings.
Now, if you wish to make a dragon almost immune to a specific cloud effect like it's own breath weapon, you give it a resistances to the given damage type, but never go over board, make it 99% at most, not a 100%.

And by the way, the cloud effects in the normal game are suspect to magic resistance, which the elemental damage ones really shouldn't be.

And back to the original topic...

Known Spells when fully developed:
- PnP sources don't specify which spells the creature uses, we only know that Faerie Dragons use either wizards spells or druids ones. We may even use a mix of them...

It would be indeed good to use both. Color spray, Entangle, Goodberry, Blur...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 06 March 2009 - 06:58 AM.

Yes... I am probably still editing the post above.
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#18 DavidW

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:46 AM

Now, if you wish to make a dragon almost immune to a specific cloud effect like it's own breath weapon, you give it a resistances to the given damage type, but never go over board, make it 99% at most, not a 100%.

Dragons are already 100% immune to their own breath weapons, and to the elemental type they're based on.

And by the way, the cloud effects in the normal game are suspect to magic resistance, which the elemental damage ones really shouldn't be.

Why not?

#19 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 07:33 AM

Now, if you wish to make a dragon almost immune to a specific cloud effect like it's own breath weapon, you give it a resistances to the given damage type, but never go over board, make it 99% at most, not a 100%.

Dragons are already 100% immune to their own breath weapons, and to the elemental type they're based on.

Well, what happens when the Red dragon casts fire resistance to itself and then begins to breath? :p -Life.
"-Auch, darn knight, stop moving, so I don't always just scorch my tail."
Of course the removal of this feature would need an overhaul of the whole engine... so it just stays just an idea.

And by the way, the cloud effects in the normal game are suspect to magic resistance, which the elemental damage ones really shouldn't be.

Why not?

The Fireball is made from normal fire, not magical... same goes for all the others. :p
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#20 yarpen

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:17 AM

Uhm, and have to say that yup, for me these familiars are quite similiar. You know, both have disabling attack. Both have hide ability (pseudo dragon only for forests, Fairy Dragon everywhere). Main difference is thaco/magic immunity - so maybe idea of making some changes to pseudo-guy would be a good idea ;-) In 3rd edition there's a Drake creature, which can be good as a base for such a creature.

And there's one cleric-like familiar for good characters (Lantern) so Fairy Dragon should be a wizard. Or maybe better... Sorcerer :p

Edited by yarpen, 06 March 2009 - 08:22 AM.


#21 DavidW

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:27 AM

Now, if you wish to make a dragon almost immune to a specific cloud effect like it's own breath weapon, you give it a resistances to the given damage type, but never go over board, make it 99% at most, not a 100%.

Dragons are already 100% immune to their own breath weapons, and to the elemental type they're based on.

Well, what happens when the Red dragon casts fire resistance to itself and then begins to breath? :p -Life.
"-Auch, darn knight, stop moving, so I don't always just scorch my tail."


I don't understand.

And by the way, the cloud effects in the normal game are suspect to magic resistance, which the elemental damage ones really shouldn't be.

Why not?

The Fireball is made from normal fire, not magical... same goes for all the others. :p

What makes you think a fireball is made of normal fire? The argument could as easily be run in the other direction: since MR protects you from it, it must be magical.

#22 Salk

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:28 AM

yarpen,

personally I am against giving real classes to the Familiars.

We have discussed this already in the other thread.

Also, the dragon that you have in mind already exists in PnP and before Demi came with the excellent idea of the Lantern Archon, I suggested it.

Its name is Firedrake and it does breath fire.

I think things are going rather smoothly and we don't need major changes to something that has already taken way too much time.

#23 jon-eli

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:35 AM

The Fireball is made from normal fire, not magical... same goes for all the others.

Just because normal fire and magical fire are functionally equivalent (barring magic res.), doesn't mean they are qualitatively identical.

[...] but being the pseudodragon a tiny creature it seems to me a little too much allowing it to clear entire areas from cloud attacks

Demi, I've kinda fallen in love with this idea, so I'll frown if you don't include it. But it begs a small question... How large actually is a pseudodragon? I believe the Monstrous Manual only specifies sizes by rough guidelines (Small, Medium, Large, etc.) What kind of ratio are we talking? Human:Pseudodragon... 3:1?... 4:1?

Also, I think the pseudodragon is able to transfer its magic resistance to its master. Would this be a viable ability in BG2? I'm not sure how overpowered it would be, especially since the Magic Resistance spell does essentially the same thing; and even 55% magic res. isn't as helpful as it sounds...

I've slightly reworked the level up system, making common "upgrade" take place every lvl up. This allows to have a more scalable grow (especially for what concern hit points) [...]

Would the growth in the familiar's hitpoints result in a growth in the mages hitpoints? Or do you intend for the HP bonus to be a once-off thing, as it is now?

#24 Salk

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:07 AM

[...] but being the pseudodragon a tiny creature it seems to me a little too much allowing it to clear entire areas from cloud attacks

Demi, I've kinda fallen in love with this idea, so I'll frown if you don't include it.

...

Also, I think the pseudodragon is able to transfer its magic resistance to its master.


To me, the first idea sounds just crazy! So no-no!

Instead the second is more reasonable: now that Demi has decided to remove ( :p ) the HP gain for summoning a familiar and keeping ( :p ) the Constitution penalty instead, I think that it would be appropriate to rebalance the bound penalty (-1 Constitution, albeit temporary) with something positive (a very small Magic Reistance like 2% might be good).

#25 jon-eli

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:18 AM

To me, the first idea sounds just crazy! So no-no!

Love is crazy. You can't talk me out of it by rational argument. Don't try. ("Oh no! CLOUDKILL?!?! Jaheira, what do you mean you forgot to memorize ZoSA??? Quickly, my familiar! Get out of that backpack... There is work to be done!")

#26 Demivrgvs

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:25 AM

I'm glad to see some discussions going on...

"A pseudodragon has a body about 1 foot long, with a 2-foot tail. It weights about 7 pounds." How powerful can be a Wing Buffet effect for such a creature? :p

In 3rd edition pseudodragon can't grant magic resistance to anyone, whereas in 2nd edition the manual says it can but doesn't specifies how, and how much...probably a spell-like ability similar to the cleric's spell Magic Resistance.

Regarding pseudodragon and faerie dragon still looking too similar it's because we still haven't assigned to the latter any of its wizard spells. We're talking about a creature with more hp, better thac0, and high magic resistance on one side, and a creature with permanent invisibility, almost no melle potential, and many spell-like abilities on the other. If they look too similar than a fighter and a mage look similar! :p

#27 jon-eli

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:39 AM

"A pseudodragon has a body about 1 foot long, with a 2-foot tail. It weights about 7 pounds." How powerful can be a Wing Buffet effect for such a creature? :p

About what you'd expect from your average ceiling fan, I'd guess. Is a cloudkill too thick to be easily dispersed by a ceiling fan?

In 3rd edition pseudodragon can't grant magic resistance to anyone, whereas in 2nd edition the manual says it can but doesn't specifies how, and how much...probably a spell-like ability similar to the cleric's spell Magic Resistance.

The impression I always got, was that the magic res. is transferred by physical contact, from the familiar being perched on its master's shoulder... so it would be a semi-permanent thing. I never thought of it as spell-like, but more a case of basking in the familiar's antimagic aura... kind of like a paladin's Holy Aura, but more restricted.

#28 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:08 AM

I don't understand.
What makes you think a fireball is made of normal fire? The argument could as easily be run in the other direction: since MR protects you from it, it must be magical.

Probably, you never will...
And the Fireballs fire is normal fire, cause the original game would have crashed many times had it not been. :p

Firedrake and it does breath fire.

Erhm, 'exhales' fire...

"A pseudodragon has a body about 1 foot long, with a 2-foot tail. It weights about 7 pounds." How powerful can be a Wing Buffet effect for such a creature? :p

As big as the smallest cloud projectile you ever make. So it could be 1/4th or 1/9th of the 60-feet cloud or something, and the familiar doesn't need to be able to do it many times in the 8-hour period.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 06 March 2009 - 10:09 AM.

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#29 yarpen

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 12:32 PM

Wizard-Fighter comparison is a good argument. But still both of creatures have many parallel abilities (chameleon/invisibility, sleep/confusion). Maybe other users will have some better suggestions about making them far more different. Because now dragons look as made from one template but with some advantages/disadvantages. One has greater disabling effect, but only at melee. Fairy got only confusion, but at range. Of course that's only my opinion, and don't take it too offensive Demi :p If it sounds like this, I'm really sorry. Actual revision is cool, just thinking about make creatures more unique. ;-)

EDIT: And from air blow idea... it should be a sort of special ability. Using great amount of energy, maybe minor haste spell his wings start to work very, very fast. That's why it has any sense. But yup, should work at very little range, and don't know is it possible.

Edited by yarpen, 06 March 2009 - 12:37 PM.


#30 jon-eli

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 07:23 PM

Probably, you never will...
And the Fireballs fire is normal fire, cause the original game would have crashed many times had it not been. :p

Pedantic.

As big as the smallest cloud projectile you ever make. So it could be 1/4th or 1/9th of the 60-feet cloud or something, and the familiar doesn't need to be able to do it many times in the 8-hour period.

In the engine, you can't just partially clear a projectile... Even the smallest ZoSA projectile would clear the most massive Cloudkill projectile.



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