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NPC Attributes


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#1 Guest_Guest_Ergopad_*_*

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 05:28 PM

I'd like to see changes on NPC attributes, as some of them really suck atm. So that you didn't have to pick them, because of thei attributes, but because you like them (or not). I think one of the most interesting characters have the lowest attributes, what is really a shame. :O

Here's example list of changes:


Garrick:
Old attributes: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 9, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 15
New attributes: STR 16, DEX 16, CON 9, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 15
- I sure, lot of you guys have invited him to your party, at your first game, and instantly removed and never invited him again. His attributes makes him maybe the worst npc in whole game.
- How about bard with decent intelligence to write down spells?
- And increase strength, to add a option to make him melee bard...

Branwen:
Old attributes: STR 13, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 9, WIS 16, CHA 13
New attributes: STR 17, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 9, WIS 17, CHA 13
- Now why now why this war cleric of tempus is waving a magical hammer, he does not have sufficent strength to carry normal hammers! :fish:
- Increase wisdom, so that we would have atleast one true cleric with good wisdom.

Faldorn: (I'd love to have a decent druid!)
Old attributes: STR 12, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 15
New attributes: STR 16, DEX 17, CON 11, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 15
- Only single class druid, and ruined with terrible attributes.
- More strength and slightly dexterity, because she is obviously melee character

Quayle: (Would be very interesting character)
Old attributes: STR 8, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 17, WIS 10, CHA 6
Old attributes: STR 8, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 17, WIS 14, CHA 14
- Is he really suppose to be priest, with 10 wisdom ?!
- Come on, the old champ is soo charming with those glasses. :p

Yeslick:
Old attributes: STR 15, DEX 12, CON 17, INT 7, WIS 16, CHA 10
New attributes: STR 16, DEX 12, CON 18, INT 7, WIS 16, CHA 10
- Not bad, but just to make him more like a true dwarf

Viconia: (BG2 fix)
Old attributes: STR 10, DEX 19, CON 8, INT 16, WIS 15, CHA 14
New attributes: STR 10, DEX 19, CON 8, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 14
- Wisdom as in BG2

Minsc: (BG2 fix)
Old attributes: STR 18, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 6, CHA 9
New attributes: STR 18, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 6, CHA 9
- Dexterity and constitution as in BG2

Jaheira: (BG2 fix)
Old attributes: STR 15, DEX 14, CON 17, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 15
New attributes: STR 15, DEX 17, CON 17, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 15
- Dexterity as in BG2

Eldoth: (Another really interesting character, with lausy attributes)
Old attributes: STR 16, DEX 12, CON 15, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 16
New attributes: STR 16, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 15, WIS 10, CHA 16
- I doubt, if he would be that clumsy (low dex), he wouldn't be making poison arrows
- As a bard, he should have atleast fair intelligence

Tiax:
Old attributes: STR 9, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 9
New attributes: STR 9, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 9
- Why that number 13 ruins all the characters, like wisdom 13 with cleric(/thief)?! ;)
- And a slight boost to dexterity wouldn't hurt?


These are just suggestions and guidelines. But I'm sure, 90% of you agree, that some of the NPCs have really too low attribute scores to even consider invite them to your party? I doubt many of you wouldn't make a character with such a low attributes, like one of these, as a main character?

#2 Miloch

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 03:27 AM

I think some of these are already implemented in Tweaks and/or Lost Items. Not bad ideas, otherwise, but you might want to balance some where you're boosting stats, think about lowering others, keeping it in character. For example, Garrick doesn't seem particularly wise to me, so no reason he should have (or need) a WIS beyond 9 or 10 (average - and possibly even lower).
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#3 Guest_Guest_Ergopad_*_*

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 06:23 AM

Well, as I said, those are just guidelines. One option would be changing ALL joinable NPCs, so that they have equal number of points in attributes altogether, but I'm not sure about it. But Faldorn, for example, should definately have a lot better attributes. Basically all "multitype" (bards, multiclass) characters have very low attribute scores. I think Bioware has learned something from BG1, since in BG2, all NPCs have pretty good attributes.

I've been looking for a mod, with these kind of attribute changes, but haven't found one yet. If someone does, please tell me. :fish:

I'd do it myself, but haven't got any experience with WEIDU, only used IEEP years ago.

#4 Domi

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:23 AM

You can try using ShadowKeeper, it is a very user-friendly software, and you (or anybody else) can edit the stats for all the NPCs in your party to be exactly as you like it. And, yes, Tweaks have the component that give the repeating characters their elevated BG2 stats.

Edited by Domi, 23 July 2008 - 07:26 AM.

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#5 Guest_Guest_Ergopad_*_*

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:41 AM

ShadowKeeper doesn't like my BGTutu. :fish:

But I still would like to see this as an component of NPC Project or as an another NPC mod. I'm 100% positive, that this little tweeking would please most of the BG1 player....

#6 Miloch

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:59 AM

One option would be changing ALL joinable NPCs, so that they have equal number of points in attributes altogether, but I'm not sure about it.

Yeah, I'm not sure about it either. NPCs should have some variation, just like humans do in real life. But perhaps they could be balanced a bit. No reason to avoid an NPC entirely just because she has crappy stats - she might have some great dialogue via BG1 NPC :fish:.

I guess I could include this in MixMod if you want to work on balancing it a bit. I'm already doing other stuff with portraits and colours (and possibly proficiencies, though there is Level1NPCs for that too).

Tweaks is here by the way, and Lost Items here. I see the Lost Items component for Viconia is probably the same as the one in Tweaks, so I might deprecate it in the next version.

Also, ShadowKeeper should work on Tutu (but not GateKeeper) but I usually don't advocate using it, because the changes aren't easy to reverse (as they are with WeiDU).
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"Wherefore do ye toil; is it not that ye may live and be happy? And if ye toil only that ye may toil more,
when shall happiness find you?" -H.P. Lovecraft, The Quest of Iranon

#7 cmorgan

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 08:04 AM

Sounds like a good tweak..


Beyond The Scope Of BG1 NPC ™ :fish:
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#8 Guest_Guest_Ergopad_*_*

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:01 AM

I'm a crazy Excel addict and I made some logaritmic calculations, so that one really good attribute (>16 for example) with other attributes low is better than bunch of fair attributes (like 12-15).

And here's the results. (Check the quality rating.)

Posted Image

#9 Domi

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:14 AM

You probably need to provide your formulae if you want people to agree or diagree with your analyses, as at the moment it is just a bunch of numbers. But as a rule of thumb, each class mainly depends on one attribute the most, while others are not really essential. You will also need to count in exceptional stats, ie Coran's or Kagain's 20's. :fish:

At any rate, I do not see any particular value of 'averaging' all the character's stats. Edwin might look like a useless character on your spreadsheet, but plenty of folks will swear that he is the best mage in the game, but his stats reflect his personality.

Cmorgan said it already, and I will repeat it - BG1NPC does not do alterations to the character sheets. BG1NPC supplies personality.

Edited by Domi, 23 July 2008 - 09:17 AM.

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#10 Guest_Guest_Ergopad_*_*

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:21 AM

Agree. Okay, here's v2.0. Now it's really logaritmic and I have to say that I fully agree with this one. All below Edwin, maybe including him, should have a boost to his/her attributes.

Posted Image

And sorry for spamming. :fish:

#11 cmorgan

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:26 AM

No problem, not spamming. But you might want to grab a section of the General mod discussion, and set this discussion up there - no problem continuing the discussion here, even if it really sn't a BG1 NPC thing, but if you put it out there there might be interest in creating a similar mod for BG2 and you could roll it all together. The easiest way would be to set your own attributes by patching the .cre files.
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by. - Douglas Adams

#12 Miloch

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:39 AM

I think I would agree with that second one too. Edwin is only a better mage than Dynaheir if you consider his 18 INT, but her overall stats are way better. So I guess the next step is to get another spreadsheet going that has the revised stats for the crappier NPCs.

No problem, not spamming. But you might want to grab a section of the General mod discussion, and set this discussion up there

Can't you just move this there? Oh wait, you don't have the POWAH to mess with General Mod, do you (and why not)?

The easiest way would be to set your own attributes by patching the .cre files.

Ugh, well Nythrun was tossing around that possibility for L1NPCs, which would be cool, but a hell of a lot of choices to make on top of an already lot of choices for proficiencies etc...
Mod Contributions
Aurora (new release!) * BG1 NPC * Gnomes * Haiass * Level 1 NPCs * Lost Items * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * In Progress: Adjusted Portraits * DSotSC (Tutu)
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * PSPad Highlighters * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
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"Wherefore do ye toil; is it not that ye may live and be happy? And if ye toil only that ye may toil more,
when shall happiness find you?" -H.P. Lovecraft, The Quest of Iranon

#13 Guest_Guest_Ergopad_*_*

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:13 AM

Edwin is special case, because he has that amulet, which gives him extra spells (or is it, because he is Wizard of Thay...).

I came up with following changes:

Yeslick +1 CON
STR 15, DEX 12, CON 18, INT 7, WIS 16 and CHA 10

Branwen +2 WIS (finally cleric with 18 wis)
STR 13, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 9, WIS 18 and CHA 13

Eldoth +2 INT and +1 CON
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 10 and CHA 16

Garrick +3 INT, +2 STR and -2 WIS
STR 16, DEX 16, CON 9, INT 16, WIS 12 and CHA 15

Faldorn +2 DEX and +1 WIS
STR 12, DEX 17, CON 11, INT 10, WIS 17 and CHA 15

Tiax +1 DEX and +2 WIS
STR 9, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 15 and CHA 9

Quayle +7 CHA (!) and +2 INT (to gnomish max)
STR 8, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 19, WIS 10 and CHA 13

What do you think? What would you change? Did I miss some character?

#14 Miloch

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:03 AM

I think these are pretty reasonable. The question is, where do we draw the line before changes are considered "powergaming."

For example, take Yeslick. Having a 12 DEX is no different from a 9 DEX, bonus-wise, and also wouldn't make a dent in his characterisation, since both stats are "average." So why not knock 3 points off DEX and add them to STR and/or WIS while we're at it?

Also, why not knock a point off Eldoth's WIS and add it to INT while we're at it. I haven't played with him enough to know whether that's in character, but he strikes me as the kind of guy that would have more smarts than wisdom.

Branwen doesn't strike me as particularly wise either, but she is a cleric. We might account for this by giving her an INT penalty - maybe she just doesn't have the brains to use her wisdom all the time.

Also, why not take a point or two off Khalid's INT and/or WIS and add it to STR. I believe he dual-wields bastard swords in Tutu, and you have no idea how much STR (as well as DEX) that would take realistically. And he can't be that smart or wise if he follows Jaheira's every word :fish:.

I won't argue too much with the gnome changes. Since they end up at the bottom of the list no matter how you skew the data, we see how much Bioware really hated gnomes :O.

And finally, would people want these all as separate components in a mod (rather than a single component for all of them)? Before everyone answers "yes", keep in mind it might end up in a mod that already has approximately one grillion options to choose from...
Mod Contributions
Aurora (new release!) * BG1 NPC * Gnomes * Haiass * Level 1 NPCs * Lost Items * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * In Progress: Adjusted Portraits * DSotSC (Tutu)
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * PSPad Highlighters * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Wherefore do ye toil; is it not that ye may live and be happy? And if ye toil only that ye may toil more,
when shall happiness find you?" -H.P. Lovecraft, The Quest of Iranon

#15 Guest_Kristal_*

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 01:18 PM

One of the things that really annoyed me was Kivan's weapon proficiencies. He gets a +2 spear right away and a bow later.. yet has mastery in halberd and two weapon style? O.o

Maybe you were trying to offset the advantage of these 2 cool items by giving him no proficiency with them? Of course I edited it to give him level 1 proficiency, at least, but it still struck me as odd.




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