55 replies to this topic

[Andyr]

Shar is not solely a human goddess...

[NiGHTMARE]

Heh yeah, Faerunian humans didn't even exist when Shar first came into being .

[Zandilar]

NiGHTMARE, on Aug 4 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

Heh yeah, Faerunian humans didn't even exist when Shar first came into being .

Humans are one of the original Creator Races of Faerun. Elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, and dragons et al are all interlopers (yeah, some humans, such as those of Mulan descent, are also interlopers, coming across with the gods of Unther and Mulhorand). So Shar is, correctly, a human goddess - since it was her existance that eventually lead to their creation. With out Selune, Shar, and Chauntea, there would be no native Faerunian humans. (Much as without Lolth there would be no drow.)

[TheBalor]

I think the 5 creator races are Humans, Dragons, Phaerimm, the Sharn, and the NWN lizardmen.

[NiGHTMARE]

Zandilar, on Aug 4 2004, 11:34 PM, said:

NiGHTMARE, on Aug 4 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

Heh yeah, Faerunian humans didn't even exist when Shar first came into being .

Humans are one of the original Creator Races of Faerun. Elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, and dragons et al are all interlopers (yeah, some humans, such as those of Mulan descent, are also interlopers, coming across with the gods of Unther and Mulhorand). So Shar is, correctly, a human goddess - since it was her existance that eventually lead to their creation. With out Selune, Shar, and Chauntea, there would be no native Faerunian humans. (Much as without Lolth there would be no drow.)

I don't see how what I just said contradicts that . However, without the above named gods there would also be no lizardmen, yuan-ti, nagas, troglodytes, doppelgangers, kuo-Toa, aaracokra, kenku, korreds, sprites, pixies, etc, so that isn't really a valid reason for why the creator deities are only worshipped by humans . Shar isn't only worshipped by humans anyway - many tribes of goblinoids and a few other monstrous creatures worship her as well.

BTW Drow would still exist as a race without Shar, they'd just live on the surface, wouldn't be called drow, and most would be good aligned. Also, other worlds already had evil dark elves which had been cast from elven society and named drow long before Lolth went bad .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 04 August 2004 - 11:14 PM.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

NiGHTMARE, on Aug 4 2004, 11:09 PM, said:

BTW Drow would still exist as a race without Shar, they'd just live on the surface, wouldn't be called drow, and most would be good aligned.  Also, other worlds already had evil dark elves which had been cast from elven society and named drow long before Lolth went bad .

*sigh* This is getting silly. A textbook case of miscommunication. (Oh, and I think you mean Lolth in that paragraph.)

I never said that she was only worshiped by humans.

I have completely lost track of this argument (might have something to do with the fact that I'm only two days recovered from a general anesthetic).

Viconia herself says, "Among the drow, we are taught nothing of other gods, and little enough about our own gods beyond Lolth," so it stands to reason that Viconia didn't learn about Shar whilst still in the Underdark. She never says when or where or how or why she came to venerate Shar.

Something must have happened at some point. This is not the kind of knowledge that just jumps into your head fully formed. (Unless Shar put it there, but gods rarely do those kinds of things, even with their own Chosen). There is one tantalizing phrase in one of her discussions with the male PC...

Quote

Vic: I was forced to flee the Underdark, making my way quickly to the surface before the other drow could stop me, cursing and crying the entire way.

PC: Without your power, that must have been a difficult journey.

Vic: Yes.  Yes it was.  Never have I been more terrified, until I found the grace of the Nightsinger.  Come, <CHARNAME>... the road beckons.

But I don't quite know how to read it. My mind tells me she's saying that when she found the grace of the Nightsinger, she was more terrified by that than even her hellish trip to the surface. (Would I be correct in reading that?) More questions, and fewer answers it seems.

[JPS]

Zandilar, on Aug 5 2004, 01:57 PM, said:

There is one tantalizing phrase in one of her discussions with the male PC...

Quote

Vic: I was forced to flee the Underdark, making my way quickly to the surface before the other drow could stop me, cursing and crying the entire way.

PC: Without your power, that must have been a difficult journey.

Vic: Yes.  Yes it was.  Never have I been more terrified, until I found the grace of the Nightsinger.  Come, <CHARNAME>... the road beckons.

But I don't quite know how to read it. My mind tells me she's saying that when she found the grace of the Nightsinger, she was more terrified by that than even her hellish trip to the surface. (Would I be correct in reading that?) More questions, and fewer answers it seems.

I've always read that as "I was terrified until I found the grace of the Nightsinger", and I thought the ambiguity was there only because, you know, Common isn't her first language. But your interpretation is certainly interesting.

Edited by JPS, 05 August 2004 - 09:31 AM.

[MrEnnigma]

Quote

Vic: Yes.  Yes it was.  Never have I been more terrified, until I found the grace of the Nightsinger.  Come, <CHARNAME>... the road beckons.

I've always taken it to mean she was terrified until she discovered Shar. The word "grace" has a positive connotation to it. I don't think she would use that word if Shar terrified her. She might if she was being sarcastic but I don't get a feeling of sarcasm from that line.

[BobTokyo]

MrEnnigma, on Aug 6 2004, 05:53 AM, said:

Quote

Vic: Yes.  Yes it was.  Never have I been more terrified, until I found the grace of the Nightsinger.  Come, <CHARNAME>... the road beckons.

I've always taken it to mean she was terrified until she discovered Shar. The word "grace" has a positive connotation to it. I don't think she would use that word if Shar terrified her. She might if she was being sarcastic but I don't get a feeling of sarcasm from that line.

I agree that the line is not sarcastic, but I wonder how Viconia interprets "grace". The idea of experiencing contat with a god being both wonderful and terrifying is very common in mythology. I could imagine that experiencing the reality of something like Shar would be truly terrifying even as Viconia accepted her as a patron.

[Cybersquirt]

I'll just, ehm, add my voice to the chorus - operatives in that sentance are, imo: until and grace.

[Fallen_Demon]

Zandilar, on Aug 5 2004, 03:57 AM, said:

Heya,

NiGHTMARE, on Aug 4 2004, 11:09 PM, said:

BTW Drow would still exist as a race without Shar, they'd just live on the surface, wouldn't be called drow, and most would be good aligned.  Also, other worlds already had evil dark elves which had been cast from elven society and named drow long before Lolth went bad .

*sigh* This is getting silly. A textbook case of miscommunication. (Oh, and I think you mean Lolth in that paragraph.)

I never said that she was only worshiped by humans.

sorry, it was me who refeared to her as a human goddess. although i too meant primarily, not only.

Edited by Fallen_Demon, 08 September 2004 - 07:41 PM.