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Thoughts on MotB portion


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#1 Domi

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 06:48 AM

I've finally restarted playing MotB and with that started thinking about Bishop again. Basically my plan atm is

-you get him out of the Wall by partially devouring his soul; at this point his essence can be either used in crafting, or you can:
-talk Kaelyn into restoring him.
-His memory is very patchy after he is ressurected, and I am thinking that a sequence of a few talks can be intiated from the player's menue in addition to whatever ones that can be squeezed into the game itself
-and as an end result where you have the 'big' talk with Gann or Saffiya you will have Bishop's 'restructuring' talk. I am currently thinking that the alignments possible for him there will be CE (Malar as a deity), CN (Shaundakul as a deity), and perhaps even TN with Mielikki as a deity. That last one is something I am not sure about, as it will take a far too drastic change. ANyways, that's what I think so far, but for now.

The mod will require more dialogues than the previous one though to integrate Bishop fully into the party, so, I better get playing!
Faster. Faster. Faster would be better. -Mal Reynolds, Serenity
I understand that folks prefer code that works. -CamDawg, G3

#2 Guest_Eyvindr_*

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 10:41 AM

I'm not sure about Mielliki. She just doesn't seem to fit with Bishop!

You should change his personality too much and then he wouldn't be Bishop any longer. Even if he would try to be less evil, I think he is just far too chaotic to became a TN. A CN sounds good, though!

#3 Domi

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 11:55 AM

Part of me agrees with the sentiment, but on another hand, I also want a good player to have a different resolution from a neutral player... TN does not just describe balance seekers, Yoshimo is TN.... Anyway, TN and Sylvanus could be a valid combination as well. Hmm, something to be mulled over.
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I understand that folks prefer code that works. -CamDawg, G3

#4 Simbul

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 12:04 PM

-you get him out of the Wall by partially devouring his soul

Do you mean in the dream? cause that's, uh, a dream...

I must confess I'd prefer to see just an expansion of the endgame (City of Judgement) part where you could get him out of the Wall a-la Akachi did with his beloved...the parallel is just too obvious to ignore it ;) And, of course, change his existing Wall dialogue and Kelemvor one. For me, that would provide the most satisfying and logical conclusion to the romance - but, of course, it's just me ;) Still, Mielikki/Silvanus...urgh.

#5 Domi

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 03:12 AM

The Mask is real enough. I want a little bit more time for chardev than the very ending. Nobody says he has to become TN in every game, the idea is that you can influence him and suceed as opposite to the OC, where the change was impossible. I just feel it will be a bit more rewarding and a bit more fun this way ;)
Faster. Faster. Faster would be better. -Mal Reynolds, Serenity
I understand that folks prefer code that works. -CamDawg, G3

#6 Guest_Ariel Swift_*

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 08:00 AM

The Mask is real enough. I want a little bit more time for chardev than the very ending. Nobody says he has to become TN in every game, the idea is that you can influence him and suceed as opposite to the OC, where the change was impossible. I just feel it will be a bit more rewarding and a bit more fun this way :)

I think your concept sounds great.
Of course it would be a challenge to make a TN Bishop believable, but im 100 percent certain you can pull it off. And moreover, it would mean more of your brillant writing.

I CAN'T WAIT for the MotB portion!!! :)

#7 Domi

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 09:34 AM

Thank you. TN Bishop is in my view Bishop without the emphasis on hurting, though with plenty of the "I only look out for me and mine" attitude. Here is a small example of diversion between the Bishops (he comments on Ammon Jerro's news about Casavir's death):

Bishop3A
Bishop (CE): I hope he dies. The fool had his moment of fame, now he’s of no use to anyone. Well, what other bad news do you have for us, warlock?
//Back to Jerro’s selection of options

Bishop3B
Bishop (CN): I don’t care if Casavir lives or dies, as long as he does not run back to you like a loyal dog. I can’t stand that slavish glint in his eyes. Or the drool.
Well, what other bad news do you have for us, warlock?
//Back to Jerro’s selection of options

Bishop3C
Bishop (TN): It’s easier for him to die than to go on like that. I don’t have any love for the man, but let him die and be done with it.
Well, what other bad news do you have for us, warlock?
//Back to Jerro’s selection of options
Faster. Faster. Faster would be better. -Mal Reynolds, Serenity
I understand that folks prefer code that works. -CamDawg, G3

#8 Guest_Ariel Swift_*

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 05:47 AM

Thank you. TN Bishop is in my view Bishop without the emphasis on hurting, though with plenty of the "I only look out for me and mine" attitude. Here is a small example of diversion between the Bishops (he comments on Ammon Jerro's news about Casavir's death):

Bishop3A
Bishop (CE): I hope he dies. The fool had his moment of fame, now he’s of no use to anyone. Well, what other bad news do you have for us, warlock?
//Back to Jerro’s selection of options

Bishop3B
Bishop (CN): I don’t care if Casavir lives or dies, as long as he does not run back to you like a loyal dog. I can’t stand that slavish glint in his eyes. Or the drool.
Well, what other bad news do you have for us, warlock?
//Back to Jerro’s selection of options

Bishop3C
Bishop (TN): It’s easier for him to die than to go on like that. I don’t have any love for the man, but let him die and be done with it.
Well, what other bad news do you have for us, warlock?
//Back to Jerro’s selection of options

I love the CN version. Sometimes I'm really amazed how well you get his personality down.
I agree with your view on TN Bishop.
I think TN Bishop would be without the self-delusion and self-loathing (which made a great part of his chaotic personality, imo) and with less "no-ties"-mania. CN and CE Bishop might sometimes still try to show the PC that they do not depend on her and could live without her (which they absolutely couldn't, of course :) ).

Anyways, great work! :)

#9 Lizzy110380

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 06:39 PM

-you get him out of the Wall by partially devouring his soul

Do you mean in the dream? cause that's, uh, a dream...

I must confess I'd prefer to see just an expansion of the endgame (City of Judgement) part where you could get him out of the Wall a-la Akachi did with his beloved...the parallel is just too obvious to ignore it ;) And, of course, change his existing Wall dialogue and Kelemvor one. For me, that would provide the most satisfying and logical conclusion to the romance - but, of course, it's just me :) Still, Mielikki/Silvanus...urgh.


I completely agree with this, in fact the first time that I played MoTB I was dissapointed that they didn't have this option at the end, because it just seemed so obvious to me. I've always loved Bishop and this would make a great addition to MoTB. It could be incorporated into the whole story line, saving him from the wall.

#10 Domi

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 04:40 AM

I don't think that either my skill or my time allows me to add a module at the end of the game. It is relatively easy to add a companion into the roster though, plus it allows to actually play with Bishop in MotB rather than just get him out in time for the Epilogue, where PC's actions won't count one way or another (cause no variables transfer from OC). I am also not a fan of having it all imbubed into one dialogue after the rescue and then a plug into the Epilogue. Plus, there is just this whole thing with the original game insisting that he gets killed right before your eyes. Anyway, I hope it will work on some level, and if not... such is life :)

Edited by Domi, 05 February 2008 - 04:42 AM.

Faster. Faster. Faster would be better. -Mal Reynolds, Serenity
I understand that folks prefer code that works. -CamDawg, G3

#11 jester

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 02:14 PM

If companionship is all about experiencing and braving situations togehter, then characters at the very and are always useless cameos and, if you play the game in one swoop, you might be counting the hours anyway.

#12 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 09:56 PM

Doesn't the wall come up too late for Bishop to be of much use in MotB? It would be great if he could be slotted in sometime earlier.

I like how you've written the CN Bishop though, an excellent choice for him! He would probably lose his charm as TN, or anything softer.

Perhaps the Bishop Romance could be changed a bit in the OC as well, to set it up for MotB - at the very least, perhaps a conversation about deities (hence it alerts the player to Bishop's lack of a deity), or even an attempt to change his alignment (foreshadowing the alignment change), and of course more choices for influence gain (less alignment based, more relationship based).

The changes you have made to the OC romance already unbalanced the game (Bishop returns to your side in the final battle), so minor changes like that would be more aesthetic then anything else. Pity romances did so little in the OC, considering the bonuses in the expansion are quite good.

Finally, there is the question of how Bishop died in the first place. It might even make more sense that Bishop does not return to your side during the final battle in the OC - regardless of the influence checks. That way, his death is more easily explainable. Or perhaps he could sacrifice himself for you (after betraying you) to save you from the King of Shadows.

Keep up the good work, it's been great playing your mod.

#13 Domi

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 07:24 AM

Actually, there is a fair bit of things you can delay till you get Bishop, I am told, such as Ashenwood. I really don't want to touch OC portion though, to allow for some new and interesting material in MotB.

I am not overly concerned about Bishop's death, though I now know I think how to make him sacrifice himself in the final battle :) It was my initial plan, but I couldn't figure out the coding. After all, plenty of them died after the battle when the walls collapsed. So could Bishop. This is actually discussed at length in one of the talks I've written so far with a bit of options.

MotB portion will have to rely a lot more on the Player-initiated talks though than the OC. Not sure how I feel about it, but it will give a player some interesting (I hope) content.
Faster. Faster. Faster would be better. -Mal Reynolds, Serenity
I understand that folks prefer code that works. -CamDawg, G3

#14 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 01:17 AM

"MotB portion will have to rely a lot more on the Player-initiated talks though than the OC. Not sure how I feel about it, but it will give a player some interesting (I hope) content."

I'm sure it will, and I look forward to playing it.

#15 Guest_rachel_*

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:30 AM

I just installed the mod, and I must say, there is relational depth that makes the game so much more satisfying to play (along with exceptional characterization and dialogue). Kudos are in order! I read this post, and just wanted to say that it would be a crime not to contiune the Bishop Romance in MoB. There's just something not quite right with the PC not being able to rip Bishop's soul out of the Wall---even if it's just to slap him :blush: As I played MoB, I just found it a tad unsatisfying after the story your mod presents. The arc of the romance, as you have interpreted it, has something...epic about. It makes me wonder if anything is more epic than love (answer: nothing). That truly is a gift.
:suspect:



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