Jump to content


Photo

XP cap remover smuggles in level 50 rules, and *poorly*


10 replies to this topic

#1 frabjous

frabjous
  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 09:40 AM

If you install the XP cap remover from the BG2 Tweakpack, it also changes the level advancement tables to allow all characters to reach level 50, without any indication to the user that it's doing this -- it also does so poorly.

My biggest complaint is that this is not mentioned in the readme, and ought to be optional. I'd prefer an XP cap remover that simply allowed Mages, Sorcerers, Druids, Paladins and Rangers to reach level 40 along with the other classes when they had earned the appropriate extra XP, and allowed multiclass characters to get up to level 40 in each class. But alas, this is not possible using BG2 Tweaks.

The tweakpack could give the option either to install the level 50 advancement tables, or not.

If this is impractical for whatever technical reasons, at the very least it needs to be transparent to the user that by removing the XP cap, (s)he is also changing the level cap.

Next, the level 50 advancement tables that the Tweakpack uses need to make more sense. Currently, they don't. Classes that reach level 39 long before the ToB XP cap end up getting penalized severely at levels 40-50.

Here's the rub: the level 50 rules smuggled in seem to require that for each level above level 40, a character must earn the same amount of XP required to go from level 39 to level 40 in the old XP table.

However, the unmodded game does not award level 40 to any class prior to the full 8 million XP, so it takes fast-earning classes like thieves, bards, clerics and monks over a million XP to go from level 39 to level 40. They then have to earn over a million for each level above 40. In effect, they are penalized at super-high levels for being fast level-earners through level 39.

Contrast the following cases:

Fighters (and Barbarians): At high level, they require exactly 250,000 XP per level. They reach level 40 at exactly 8 million XP. Here, the level 50 rules from Tweaks work exactly as one would expect. Each new level requires 250,000 more XP, so that they reach level 50 at 10,500,000 XP.

Now compare this to:

Thieves (and Bards): At most high levels, thieves require 220,000 XP per level -- that is, up until level 39, which they reach at 6,380,000. However, they do not go from 39 until 40 until they reach 8,000,000, so that particular level requires 1,620,000 experience points. The level 50 rules smuggled in by Tweaks requires 1,620,000 XP for each level above level 40. They reach level 41 only with 9,620,000 XP and require a grand total of 24,200,000 to reach level 50: more than twice that of Fighters, despite leveling up faster than fighters prior to level 40.

Similarly, Clerics and Monks require 225,000 xp/level prior to level 40, and 1,025,000 xp/level afterwards, so they only reach level 50 at 18,250,000.

For mages/sorcerers it's a steady 375,000 xp/level, for rangers/paladins, it's a steady 300,000 xp/level. The result is that these classes also end up at level 50 long before thieves, bards, clerics and monks.

And as for druids, well...

Related bug report: when using the XP cap remover along with no other options of the Tweakpack, I could not level up a druid past level 35 in the game, because I had a new weapon proficiency point I had nowhere to spend... and the game would not allow me to move to the next step of picking an HLA or complete the level-up.

As I see it, there are two better options:

1. Make high-level level progression steady for all classes, even if this means awarding levels above 40 prior to 8,000,000 XP. (E.g., grant level 40 as a thief at 6,600,000, level 41 at 6,820,000, and so on....) This has the defect of not preserving the unmodded game table (the table in the ToB manual) at level 40 for some classes.

2. Still require every class to reach a minimum of 8,000,000 to reach level 40, but afterwards use the xp/level from the levels prior to level 40. (E.g., only award level 40 to a thief at 8,000,000 but then grant level 41 at 8,220,000 and level 42 at 8,440,000, etc.)

At the very least, quick-levelling up classes early in the game should level up no slower than the worst of the slow-levelling up classes (e.g. Druids at 500k/level).

(All the above was tested with with patched ToB, with Fixpack v4 and the XP cap remover from Tweaks v5 installed, but no other mods installed.)

#2 Azazello

Azazello

    The Anti-Spammer

  • Members
  • 555 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orlando (via Nairobi, Kenya {via New York City})

Posted 06 December 2007 - 01:50 PM

Welcome to the g3 forums. :)
Der Tag beginnt in der Mittel am Nacht, immer. -- Peter Wendl
================================================================
Community Contributions
a directory of Mega-Installation Guides * Level 1 NPCs * gMinion: expanded TP2 for MegaInstalls * PSM (PSQM): expanded scripts for Melanthium * Weimer's-Tactics: revised TP2 for MegaInstalls * non-detectable Cloak of Non-Detection ?? * Shar Nadal (DSotSC-BGT) revision

#3 frabjous

frabjous
  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 06 December 2007 - 04:02 PM

Thanks. I've actually been around awhile -- I just finally got around to registering today. (In the past, I've just guest-posted.)

#4 BigRob

BigRob

    The Prince of Worthless Trivia

  • Gibberlings
  • 3868 posts
  • Location:Over there.

Posted 07 December 2007 - 06:02 PM

Well, I would have assumed that an XP cap remover would also raise the levels one is capable of reaching, as more XP without more levels would be kind of pointless. That said, the 1.6 million XP per level for thieves is pretty out of whack.


It would I guess depend on what was easier for the Fixpack coders to do, but option 1 would seem to be better to me, to essentially push up the maximum level out to the maximum XP that can be got.

Edited by BigRob, 07 December 2007 - 06:03 PM.

Aklon: Traveller. Healer. Warrior. Lover. Coming Soon at G3 (I swear!)

Click here to visit Aklon's G3 page.

Cam is on some kind of crack or something... either that, or it's the influence of Dr. Feelgood. - Icelus


The second confusing thing about Australia are the animals. They can be divided into three categories: Poisonous, Odd, and Sheep.

-Douglas Adams

#5 frabjous

frabjous
  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 07 December 2007 - 06:21 PM

Thanks for the reply.

Well, I would have assumed that an XP cap remover would also raise the levels one is capable of reaching, as more XP without more levels would be kind of pointless.


Hardly pointless. Not only does it have an obvious effect on Mages, Sorcerers, Paladins, Rangers and Druids by allowing them to reach previously unreachable levels (32-40), it makes a tremendous difference for multi- and dual-classed characters.

But my real point was that the change should be transparent to the user. It shouldn't just say it removes the experience point cap: it should say that it is both removing the XP cap and changing the level cap.

Ideally, however, there would be an option to do both and another option just to remove the XP cap while leaving the level cap at 40.

I have no objection to level 50 rules if implemented in a way that makes sense, and which the user knows (s)he is installing when (s)he does so.

I understand that feasibility and easy implementability may make a difference for the details. I guess the modders will have to let us know.

#6 CamDawg

CamDawg

    Executive Delivery Boy

  • Gibberling Poobah
  • 8709 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 13 December 2007 - 08:44 AM

If this is impractical for whatever technical reasons, at the very least it needs to be transparent to the user that by removing the XP cap, (s)he is also changing the level cap.

It's for technical reasons and, sure, it'll be added to the readme.

However, the unmodded game does not award level 40 to any class prior to the full 8 million XP, so it takes fast-earning classes like thieves, bards, clerics and monks over a million XP to go from level 39 to level 40. They then have to earn over a million for each level above 40. In effect, they are penalized at super-high levels for being fast level-earners through level 39.

Check, got it. Thief and bard progression have been adjusted (they now max at level 50 at 8.9M XP) as well as clerics and monks (max at 9.45M XP for level 50). I went with option 1, as it makes the most sense.

Related bug report: when using the XP cap remover along with no other options of the Tweakpack, I could not level up a druid past level 35 in the game, because I had a new weapon proficiency point I had nowhere to spend... and the game would not allow me to move to the next step of picking an HLA or complete the level-up.

Were you using a mod kit? This happens when there are non-zero values in the unused proficiencies in the prof table. In the default game, druids (and the Bio druid kits) don't have any here. All non-zero values here should be cleaned up by Fixpack anyway in the "High-Level Dual-Class Characters Get Trapped at Level-Up Screen" fix.
Don't you worry about Planet Express, let me worry about blank.

#7 frabjous

frabjous
  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 13 December 2007 - 09:39 AM

It's for technical reasons and, sure, it'll be added to the readme.


Understood, thanks.

Check, got it. Thief and bard progression have been adjusted (they now max at level 50 at 8.9M XP) as well as clerics and monks (max at 9.45M XP for level 50). I went with option 1, as it makes the most sense.


That's great. I appreciate that. :)

Were you using a mod kit? This happens when there are non-zero values in the unused proficiencies in the prof table. In the default game, druids (and the Bio druid kits) don't have any here. All non-zero values here should be cleaned up by Fixpack anyway in the "High-Level Dual-Class Characters Get Trapped at Level-Up Screen" fix.


No, the only mods I had installed, as I mentioned above, were the Fixpack and one or two components of Tweaks (inc. the XP cap remover of course).

However, I have been unable to duplicate the problem. It's possible that I did something boneheaded like not scrolling down far enough in the selection screen to find the last open slot. :help: I'll experiment a bit more, and if I am able to duplicate it, I'll let you know.

Thanks again!

#8 CamDawg

CamDawg

    Executive Delivery Boy

  • Gibberling Poobah
  • 8709 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 13 December 2007 - 09:54 AM

However, I have been unable to duplicate the problem. It's possible that I did something boneheaded like not scrolling down far enough in the selection screen to find the last open slot. :help: I'll experiment a bit more, and if I am able to duplicate it, I'll let you know.

Cheers. If nothing else, it's a reminder I should include the Fixpack weapprof.2da fixes for folks who want to use this component on a non-Fixpack game.
Don't you worry about Planet Express, let me worry about blank.

#9 Guest_xard_*

Guest_xard_*
  • Guests

Posted 04 January 2008 - 07:51 AM

hello i have question i have instaled xp cap remover but my old monk always when get 39-40 have -1 to next level , i must crate new character?

#10 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modders
  • 4715 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:At Large

Posted 04 January 2008 - 08:51 AM

I don't think so. You could probably fix that with a game editor by setting the level and XP values correctly, if the game doesn't recognize and adjust them automatically.
Mod Contributions
Aurora (new release!) * BG1 NPC * Gnomes * Haiass * Level 1 NPCs * Lost Items * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * In Progress: Adjusted Portraits * DSotSC (Tutu)
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * PSPad Highlighters * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Wherefore do ye toil; is it not that ye may live and be happy? And if ye toil only that ye may toil more,
when shall happiness find you?" -H.P. Lovecraft, The Quest of Iranon

#11 WizWom

WizWom

    Wandering Kernel of Happiness

  • Members
  • 405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rosendale, MO

Posted 04 January 2008 - 03:49 PM

hello i have question i have instaled xp cap remover but my old monk always when get 39-40 have -1 to next level , i must crate new character?


The -1 is when there is no further entry in the XPLevel.2da table - it's not precisely a bug in the XP Cap remover, rather a bug in the game.

Don't worry about it at all.



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users